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Vanna's Note:
Story time! This interview was first published in 2017 in Flowers Magazine with the first installment (of three) of Chiho Saito's 20th anniversary follow-up manga, titled After the Revolution. This was concurrent with a new printing of the original five volume Utena manga, and the interview appears in an edited format in the fifth and final volume.
Not long after, an Italian print of the After the Revolution paperback was made, and it included the interview as it had been formatted for the fifth Utena volume in Japan, translated from Japanese to Italian. mint showed off some incredible work translating that on the forum, and that is the text as presented here.
However, you'll notice in the thread, Nagumo begins picking at the two, and ultimately, using the Italian translation to English as a springboard, went back and translated the 2017 Flowers Magazine version of the interview from Japanese, with editing by Ayu Ohseki. Because some of the differences may very well have been choices made by the translators making the Italian print, I decided to make pages for both versions of the interview. Check out the thread for Nagumo's translations of the bits of character sheets and such that are exclusive to the magazine version, and if you really want the fine dining, the character design sheets exclusive to the fourth volume got kinda mashed together for the magazine, but if you check the gallery here you'll find a LOT of those pages translated!!
Should you wish to check our work, the Japanese language interview scans from both publications are in Historia Arcana!
Published in After the Revolution (2020 Italian Print) and translated by mint
2017 Special Talk Chiho Saito and Kunihiko Ikuhara Interview!
The illustration that inspired Utena
At master Saito’s house there were a lot of objects on display... There was even a beautiful “Utena Room" <3
Master Ikuhara, why did you ask master Chiho Saito to work on Utena, la fillette révolutionnaire's character design…?
Ikuhara (I from here on out): At that time, I had finished working on the anime Sailor Moon, and for my next work I was thinking of a personal project. However, I didn't think that it would be a story about a girl that did something while wearing a costume. In that troubled time I by chance entered a bookshop and out of the corner of my eye I saw the cover illustration of the “Petit Comic” magazine illustrated by master Saito. At that point I was inspired and thought: “Ah, it could be her!”. Instinctively, I said to myself “If I could ask the person that illustrated this drawing to design some characters, maybe everything would fall into place perfectly!”. Thus I got rid of everything I had thought of up to that point and convinced myself that my new work would be an anime for girls with that type of style.
Saito (S
I: Maybe the name “Utena” already existed, I had thought of a lot of variants, among which, a kindergarten teacher heroine! (laughs) I was very indecisive, I didn't know if it was worth it to carry on a story that had a girl as the protagonist but, the moment I came across the master’s (Chiho Saito) illustration, I simply fell in love. It wasn’t a rational thing, I just said “There’s what I wanted!”, and I impulsively thought “This way I can create a fantastic project, no doubt about it!”.
Here is the illustration that inspired master Ikuhara and that marked the beginning of the bond between him and master Saito! The vision of the world that is perceived in the image is imbued with a refined eroticism.
So you were inspired by a drawing?
I: In my case, it happens quite often. Generally I'm the type of person that speaks in a coherent and logical way, but I like drawings imbued with a strong energy capable of dismantling my reasoning. Master Saito’s illustration possessed that power and was able to sweep away the logic that I had, presumptuously, elaborated in my mind.
Master Saito, what did you feel when you heard that master Ikuhara wanted to speak with you?
S: At first the editor of “Petit Comic” told me that the director of Sailor Moon and his staff wanted to ask me to create the character designs for a videogame that they would soon make. “Sailor Moon’s director!?”, I exclaimed, surprised. Then I replied “I’ll meet him immediately!”, (laughs)
I: To be honest, that videogame was a lie. (laughs) I lied because I thought that, if I had said at the start that it was about an anime, the people around master Saito would have been on guard; so, at first, I decided to play the videogame card. I had planned to tell her some other time, while working on it, that the project would be changed into an animated series. (laughs)
A meeting that started with a drawing: the moment Utena came to life
S: And that's how it was decided that I would work on the character design. Though, at first I didn't receive specific instructions. I was only told to keep the style of my previous work, Waltz in a White Dress, right?
I: I still have all of master Saito's letters and my sketches from that period. At that time e-mails didn't exist, so we exchanged opinions via fax. However, at first the project wasn't well defined, let's say I was thinking it up little by little while working on it. I regretted it but, from the moment that it was one of her illustrations to inspire me, I was going to change the story based on her drawings.
The world of Utena was developed starting from the character design.
Anthy Himemiya is a heroine surrounded by mystery. The reason may be that master Ikuhara and master Saito were working uncertainly?!
S: At the start this fact left me a bit perplexed. (laughs) Probably, by giving me vague directions, the director wanted me to make some drawings from which to get ideas from, but at the start I continued to talk to him without understanding his intentions at all.
I: From my point of view, the story could only take shape after having finished the design. The first step was the design of the characters; then it was fundamental for me to fall in love with such a design and, until that happened, I wouldn't have been able to think about the story details or of the subjects involved. Let’s say, since I didn't have any ideas to start from, I asked her for the crazy request of creating something that I could fall in love with and that was able to give me some ideas. (laughs)
S: The thing is that, at the start, the drawings were missing that “enchanted” atmosphere, and there was no way to provoke his interest. (laughs) Though I didn't think he wanted that from me, I was convinced I had to simply work on the design: therefore, every time I showed him a drawing saying, for example, “We could add this kind of decoration here…”, he always told me no and rejected my proposals. But then, when one day I created a good drawing of Utena and Anthy one next to the other, he told me “Oh, this is what I want!”. That’s how I finally understood what he had in mind. (laughs)
Utena and Anthy were completed first, and then…
Was the character design at the time close to the current Utena and Anthy?
I: Since at that time their characters were almost completely defined, all the others were made starting, backwards, from the two of them. The same happened with the story. Some details of Utena’s plot were drawn from master Saito’s other shoujo manga and expanded upon. Because of this, there are very many parts, like those tied to Akio or to Miki’s sister, that are similar to those in her other works.
S: I knew that the director and screenwriter attentively read my manga, but I had no idea they were creating something similar.
Was the manga created with master Ikuhara?
I: The master (Chiho Saito) always showed me the storyboards. S: He carefully checked the first chapter and at some points he also said “I’ll handle the storyboard!” (laughs)
The magnetic force of the characters steered the story.
The fact that the anime and manga ending were different provoked many different interpretations, and fans discussed it heatedly.
I: Sometimes I even told her what size to make the bigger panels, right? (laughs) Master Saito always drew her manga starting from the story, rather than the characters. However, since in anime you initially give more importance to the characters, I wanted the panels to be set up in such a way to show them as much as possible. That’s why I intervened in managing the panel work at some points.
How does the manga’s plot differ from the anime?
I: If you only read the anime’s script, it seems like a completely ridiculous story! (laughs) Not even I, who thought it up, understand it. The anime would be ready in a year, and while it’s true that you can’t really say anything until you try, creating a manga with such undefined details was impossible.
S: At that time I drew without even knowing what would happen next in the story. I absolutely didn’t know what kind of girl Anthy was and because of that I was often surprised, for example, by the fact she had a brother…
I: I didn’t know either! (laughs) I was just throwing down ideas as they came to me! (laughs)
S: I had to draw something that no one had the slightest idea about, knowing that next year the story would be caught up to by the anime and, even if I honestly didn’t understand, they let me continue drawing to my heart's content… (laughs)
I: Although, even though we worked following our own scripts, the fact that master Saito’s manga would be released first was a source of great encouragement for everyone. It would often happen that members of our staff would ask themselves: “What are we even doing?!” (laughs) Nevertheless, the power of the images was very efficient, and when master Saito’s manga was completed, we would all have the same perception of the work. Even if at the end the story had come out surrealistic, we agreed on the fact that it harmonized perfectly with that kind of illustration style. If we had just read the story, it probably wouldn’t have been possible for everyone to have the same impression.
S: Meanwhile I was drawing without even knowing anything… (laughs)
Behind the scenes of the much discussed finale!
I: In the end, absurdly enough, I think the reason the story went so far was entirely because the magnetic force of master Saito’s characters kept us all together.
On that note, did you discuss the respective finales?
S: Since the TV series transmission and the manga’s publication ended at more or less the same time, I also came to know of the anime’s ending through reading the script. Even knowing the anime’s ending, I didn't necessarily have to stick to it, so in the manga version I gave it a slightly different twist.
I: But in the final few episodes of the TV series the story becomes decidedly more surrealistic, so I imagine that you may have wondered how to interpret its meaning, is that right? (laughs)
S: It being images, I was completely fascinated watching them. Though I knew that if I started to interrogate myself on their meaning I wouldn’t have understood anything anymore. So I limited myself to drawing and thinking: “This is like that and that is like this” (laughs) But every week, whenever I watched the anime, I would say to myself: “So this happened… Now what am I supposed to do?”... They would show me 4 episodes a month and every time I drew with the clear perception of having been defeated! (laughs)
After 20 years they announced new self-contained episodes!
How did you decide to create new Utena stories and to publish them monthly in “Flowers”?
In the first of the new self-contained stories published in installments in “Flowers” since September 2017, Touga Kiryuu, now a gallery owner, and Kyouichi Saionji return to Ohtori Academy…
S: I was well aware that this year would be the 20th anniversary of the series broadcast. In the meantime, the editorial team of “Flowers” proposed to me to draw something in occasion of the twenty years, and in fact, as the author of the Utena manga, it was up to me to do it! (laughs)
I: If they had proposed it 5 years ago, I would have probably refused, but since 20 years have gone by… I thought that, even if someone preferred not to read the new “episodes”, the fans that haven’t forgotten about Utena after all this time could consider them as separate stories… And it wouldn’t be bad to do a bit of “fan service”.
S: Even in the movie the story took on a different twist than the manga, so it could be understood like that.
I: I think that the fact that different Utena’s exist isn’t a problem. There was the animated version for TV, the cinematographic version, the manga… If this final one gains a new volume, I think the fans will accept it without much difficulty.
S: I told myself that, since we’re dealing with a subject that has acquired several different forms, that yet another version would also be tolerated. So I decided to try.
The passionate feelings of two artists who brought Utena to life together!
I heard that the new manga is still being worked on... (At the time of this interview)
S: The director started and developed the plot so fast that I told myself “It’ll be an easy victory!” with great confidence. (laughs) Now that I'm working on it, though, I ran into some trouble and, since we’re still dealing with some different aspects, the story isn’t complete yet.
I: I wanted to create something that nobody had ever seen before. Even with the anime it often happened that we completely reset the elements that were acceptable and “normal” in order to adopt, after having done tabula rasa, the new ideas that emerged from them. I imagine it was hard, but I think that the power of the imagery was so effective and the story so incisive specifically because we felt our way through.
S: Doing it again now would be really hard…
I: But now we know what Utena is about, right? (laughs) Without adequate mental preparation, I think we would end up not understanding our respective intentions, but with the rest I think both us and the readers know that in this work the story takes a pretty surreal turn. (laughs)
After a long time, a new Utena collaboration!
How was it like to work on Utena again after all this time?
S: It wasn’t that weird, right?
I: Exactly! At that time master Saito, the staff members, and I already had different ideas about Touga, Saionji, and the others. However from the moment that the characters were now “defined”, we didn't need to hesitate in that sense. On the contrary, we worked while thinking things like “That would be something he’d do, right?”, or “He probably wouldn’t do this…”
What does Utena represent for you?
I: In my case, - and it doesn’t apply only to Utena but to all the works I've created - it’s, let’s say, an initiation, a sort of “rite of passage”. Something that is necessary to overcome to be able to leave the tunnel and keep going forward. I am aware that as a work it isn’t in line with the times, and that at times it goes a bit too far, but it’s as if I felt I wanted to create it at all costs and that, regardless of what obstacles i would have to overcome, if I didn’t overcome it I would in no way be able to continue on my journey.
S: I had always drawn my manga on my own, so this was the first time that I worked in collaboration with someone else. Although of course it reflected my ideas, I was really very impatient to see the final result, and since it’s been appreciated by the public in different forms, I consider it a sort of “gift”.
I: At that time I wanted to create a work with a strong impact, that would forever remain in the hearts of those that saw it. I was actually pleasantly surprised to know that, after 20 years, so many people are still in love with it. During the making of this work, people often asked me who it was intended for, but now that all this time has passed I am truly happy to learn that it has reached so many people.
S: Even the female fans have continued to love Utena for all this time. The work contained all the doubts and anxieties of a staff of twenty-year olds, and I think that reached the female audience in a very direct way, as something personal. Even if it was my manga that provided the dominant themes, I have the impression that it was filled with the feelings of the director and of the entire staff.
The “frustration” of Utena reflects the turmoil of young women
I: I think that the work reflected in part the tension that we felt because of our position back then. And later, since the story talks about a girl and her place in the world, I think this aspect also remained in everyone’s hearts. We interrogated ourselves on things like: “What does a girl aspire to be?” or “Are women in this society pushed to the background?”... At the end of the day, I think the main theme in Utena is “frustration”. And I'm also referring to that of us authors.
S: If we think about it, women experience frustration ever since they are children…
The central element of Utena is…
I: I think the reason that Utena has remained in everyone’s hearts is because this “frustration” is at the center of it. If it had told a story of success, everyone would have forgotten about it quite quickly.
S: When a story talks about success, it might elicit admiration or a desire to emulate it, but if it talks about frustration it gets perceived realistically as something that belongs to us.
The questions of girls are a theme that you’re even now conveying through your work on “Torikae Baya”, is that correct?
S: Probably. I thought that in the Heian period girls were already feeling frustrated… (laughs)
Has working on Utena influenced your subsequent works?
S: Before working on Utena I had no idea how to tell stories about love between girls, but after I did it I told myself “Hey! This isn’t so bad!”. So in Torikae Baya I had fun drawing the wedding between Sarasoju, who was dressed as a man, and the fourth princess. laughs It being a wedding between two women, something that can absolutely not be discovered, it’s a tension-filled scene. I think the experience I had with Utena is reflected in the two young and pretty female characters in Torikae Baya.
And you, master Ikuhara, were you influenced by other works from master Saito?
I: Of course. Even recently I happened to come across an incredible short story by master Saito, but when I talked to her about it she told me: “I really drew such a story?”. “What?! You forgot about it?”, I replied incredulously. (laughs) I couldn’t understand how she could have forgotten that she worked on it!
Towards my thirty-fifth anniversary as a mangaka, after having spent day and night drawing…
S: In the moment that a work comes to life I consider it, like all the others, as a child. However, when it becomes very successful and the readers become fans, then I get attached and I reread it. If it is not particularly appreciated, I think “Ah, it went badly”, and I don't get the desire to read it again. There are many works that I didn't read even once after I had drawn them. (laughs) And that’s how I end up completely forgetting about them…
I: There are probably some authors that possess a sort of innate “wiseness”, but in general, when you create a work, I think you proceed by trying to repeatedly change the theme, characters, or other aspects. It might be that master Saito, unconsciously thinking “In the past it went badly, but if this time I made these changes it could work”, gave different forms to what she had in mind, changing it many times. Maybe this is why she herself doesn’t remember every single short story she’s created in detail.
S: Because very often I end up thinking I've failed… Just as often as I tell myself “This time I have to do it!”, and try to propose the story again after changing a few aspects.
Towards the thirty-fifth anniversary of her career as a mangaka…
Master Saito, speaking of the thirty-fifth anniversary of your career, how do you feel looking back?
S: I have the impression that I draw manga every single day… I have the feeling that the time has really flown by. About the rest, about two weeks after my debut my first publication in installments started in the “Shojo Comic” magazine.
The wedding between two women that [Saito] had fun drawing. The elements acquired from her experience with Utena are reflected in Torikae Baya.
I: What? Right after your debut?!
S: My manager at the time counted on me a lot and, despite me not having debuted yet, I had gotten a spot in the magazine to serialize one of my stories. laughs Despite this, the work didn’t get the desired response… Having disappointed the expectations placed on me is the memory I have of my debut as a mangaka. Having started out as a failure, I first learned the bitterness you feel in not being well-received by the public, and because of this I tentatively went along trying to understand how I would get the readers to appreciate my manga.
Marionette, a work in which a solemn and baroque style shines. In Kakan no Madonna an aesthetic and refined view of the world is shown.
And how did you manage to get out of it?
S: I initially got some feedback when I drew stories centered around weddings. At that time I was already married, so I often thought things like: “Oh but marriage isn’t like this!”. It was still useful to understand that romantic stories were appreciated by everyone. At the same time, though, the pride tied to my young age brought me to think: “This is too embarrassing, I can't represent such a banality…! I want to draw something more refined!” Nevertheless, when - without thinking too much about it - I drew that which I considered a “banality”, the public really liked it. That’s when I understood that that could represent a way out for me and I threw myself headfirst into drawing. Having had some success allowed me to take a sigh of relief and, while I was exploring a richer world in search of eroticism and new ideas, Utena was proposed to me.
I: It’s just my impression, but I think that master Saito has loved the baroque world from the start. I believe that the adoption of romantic elements typical of girls' manga of the time was perfectly suited to a rediscovery and reworking of this style.
S: I think taking only what already belonged to me and expressing it as it was was a big mistake. However, it may be that behind the success I had later there was the technique, which I had already learned, through which I learned to "collide" with reality, looking for elements common to me and the readers and making sure to amplify them, adapting them to what I wanted to draw.
I: Since the time of "Marionette" you placed a spotlight on the baroque style, differentiating yourself somewhat from other authors. Let's say it was a kind of historical drama with a slightly different idea of love than the traditional one. In it I sensed something profound, an expanding world.
The feelings they want to transmit to fans. A message from the authors.
S: So I went on, the success of Utena came, the Kanon series was awarded at the Shogakukan Manga Awards, and I felt a sense of accomplishment. Since I had always thought long and hard about manga up to that point, suffering each time, I felt slightly relieved. However, it often happens that success ends up being a downfall, and the same happened to me. (laughs) For a time I completely lost the desire to draw. Nevertheless, I knew I couldn't give up, and, telling myself that as long as I had work to do that meant that my works were in demand, I managed to keep going, and little by little the passion returned as well. Also, since "Flowers" is a magazine in which many veterans publish, the fact that they were allowing me to be a part of it as a newcomer made me feel more comfortable. And so, to this day, I have always been allowed to do more or less as I wished. When I say that I have been drawing manga every single day, I feel that only by doing so have I been able to survive.
A message for the fans.
As a last thing, I would ask you for a message for all the fans.
I: I thank you for following Utena for 20 years. I did not think she would become such a beloved character, but perhaps the positive aspect of this work lies in the fact that, for those who read the manga or saw the anime for the first time it was an experience similar to an initiation. Then there will be those who have only just discovered it, which is also why I see the serialization of the new “episodes” positively; probably, finally, this new work might attract media attention and thus lift someone's spirits... In any case, I hope you enjoy the novelty, and forgive me if anything is not to your liking. (laughs)
S: I too while drawing often think "Please forgive me!" (laughs) The idea of ruining a work with such a splendid and moving ending scares me, but since we have all become adults, I hope for your mercy…(laughs)
I: It being a work that has remained in everyone's hearts, as authors, we happened to wonder with master Saito whether we would not risk ruining it, but we agreed that we should reintroduce Utena once again precisely for those who had continued to love it all this time.
S: I mean, not knowing whether or not in 10 years I will still be able to draw, even from a physical standpoint, I thought maybe it would be my last chance. On the occasion of the 20th anniversary I was given this opportunity and I wanted to take it and put myself to the test.
Master Saito, say something for your fans as well, please.
S: If until now I have managed to make a living working exclusively as a mangaka, it is only thanks to all those who have purchased my volumes. Therefore, I hope that I can continue for a while longer to draw works that will be read with pleasure and that can encourage readers by making them think: "I will try my hardest until next month when I read the next chapter of this manga!" I don't know how to do anything but draw manga, and I do it with the desire to lighten and improve someone's daily life in some way. I truly thank you.
Thank you both!
This interview was originally published in the monthly publication “Flowers” in September of 2017 and has been adapted to this volume edition.
Shoujo Kakumei Utena (Revolutionary Girl Utena) is © Kunihiko Ikuhara, Chiho Saito, Shogakukan and bePapas/TV Tokyo and/or their respective copyright holders. The US release of the Revolutionary Girl Utena series and movie was © Central Park Media and now belongs to Right Stuf. The US release of the Utena manga is © VIZ. The various sources used in this site are noted where their content is presented. Don't sue us, seriously. Blood. Stone.
Story time! This interview was first published in 2017 in Flowers Magazine with the first installment (of three) of Chiho Saito's 20th anniversary follow-up manga, titled After the Revolution. This was concurrent with a new printing of the original five volume Utena manga, and the interview appears in an edited format in the fifth and final volume.
Not long after, an Italian print of the After the Revolution paperback was made, and it included the interview as it had been formatted for the fifth Utena volume in Japan, translated from Japanese to Italian. mint showed off some incredible work translating that on the forum, and that is the text as presented here.
However, you'll notice in the thread, Nagumo begins picking at the two, and ultimately, using the Italian translation to English as a springboard, went back and translated the 2017 Flowers Magazine version of the interview from Japanese, with editing by Ayu Ohseki. Because some of the differences may very well have been choices made by the translators making the Italian print, I decided to make pages for both versions of the interview. Check out the thread for Nagumo's translations of the bits of character sheets and such that are exclusive to the magazine version, and if you really want the fine dining, the character design sheets exclusive to the fourth volume got kinda mashed together for the magazine, but if you check the gallery here you'll find a LOT of those pages translated!!
Should you wish to check our work, the Japanese language interview scans from both publications are in Historia Arcana!
Published in After the Revolution (2020 Italian Print) and translated by mint
2017 Special Talk Chiho Saito and Kunihiko Ikuhara Interview!
|
The illustration that inspired Utena
At master Saito’s house there were a lot of objects on display... There was even a beautiful “Utena Room" <3
Ikuhara (I from here on out): At that time, I had finished working on the anime Sailor Moon, and for my next work I was thinking of a personal project. However, I didn't think that it would be a story about a girl that did something while wearing a costume. In that troubled time I by chance entered a bookshop and out of the corner of my eye I saw the cover illustration of the “Petit Comic” magazine illustrated by master Saito. At that point I was inspired and thought: “Ah, it could be her!”. Instinctively, I said to myself “If I could ask the person that illustrated this drawing to design some characters, maybe everything would fall into place perfectly!”. Thus I got rid of everything I had thought of up to that point and convinced myself that my new work would be an anime for girls with that type of style.
Saito (S
I: Maybe the name “Utena” already existed, I had thought of a lot of variants, among which, a kindergarten teacher heroine! (laughs) I was very indecisive, I didn't know if it was worth it to carry on a story that had a girl as the protagonist but, the moment I came across the master’s (Chiho Saito) illustration, I simply fell in love. It wasn’t a rational thing, I just said “There’s what I wanted!”, and I impulsively thought “This way I can create a fantastic project, no doubt about it!”.
| Kunihiko Ikuhara He is active in different fields, working as an anime and film director and music producer. He directed the Sailor Moon animated series and founded the creative group “Be-Papas”. He directed Utena, la fillette révolutionnaire, Mawaru-Penguindrum, Yuri Kuma Arashi and many more. |
Here is the illustration that inspired master Ikuhara and that marked the beginning of the bond between him and master Saito! The vision of the world that is perceived in the image is imbued with a refined eroticism.
I: In my case, it happens quite often. Generally I'm the type of person that speaks in a coherent and logical way, but I like drawings imbued with a strong energy capable of dismantling my reasoning. Master Saito’s illustration possessed that power and was able to sweep away the logic that I had, presumptuously, elaborated in my mind.
Master Saito, what did you feel when you heard that master Ikuhara wanted to speak with you?
S: At first the editor of “Petit Comic” told me that the director of Sailor Moon and his staff wanted to ask me to create the character designs for a videogame that they would soon make. “Sailor Moon’s director!?”, I exclaimed, surprised. Then I replied “I’ll meet him immediately!”, (laughs)
I: To be honest, that videogame was a lie. (laughs) I lied because I thought that, if I had said at the start that it was about an anime, the people around master Saito would have been on guard; so, at first, I decided to play the videogame card. I had planned to tell her some other time, while working on it, that the project would be changed into an animated series. (laughs)
| Chiho Saito She debuted in 1982 with the work Ken to mademoiselle. In 1996 the Kanon series was one of the winners of the forty-second Shogakukan Manga Awards. A lot of her works, among which Bronze no Tenshi. Ice Forest and Torikae Baya were published in Flowers Magazine. |
A meeting that started with a drawing: the moment Utena came to life
S: And that's how it was decided that I would work on the character design. Though, at first I didn't receive specific instructions. I was only told to keep the style of my previous work, Waltz in a White Dress, right?
I: I still have all of master Saito's letters and my sketches from that period. At that time e-mails didn't exist, so we exchanged opinions via fax. However, at first the project wasn't well defined, let's say I was thinking it up little by little while working on it. I regretted it but, from the moment that it was one of her illustrations to inspire me, I was going to change the story based on her drawings.
The world of Utena was developed starting from the character design.
Anthy Himemiya is a heroine surrounded by mystery. The reason may be that master Ikuhara and master Saito were working uncertainly?!
S: At the start this fact left me a bit perplexed. (laughs) Probably, by giving me vague directions, the director wanted me to make some drawings from which to get ideas from, but at the start I continued to talk to him without understanding his intentions at all.
I: From my point of view, the story could only take shape after having finished the design. The first step was the design of the characters; then it was fundamental for me to fall in love with such a design and, until that happened, I wouldn't have been able to think about the story details or of the subjects involved. Let’s say, since I didn't have any ideas to start from, I asked her for the crazy request of creating something that I could fall in love with and that was able to give me some ideas. (laughs)
S: The thing is that, at the start, the drawings were missing that “enchanted” atmosphere, and there was no way to provoke his interest. (laughs) Though I didn't think he wanted that from me, I was convinced I had to simply work on the design: therefore, every time I showed him a drawing saying, for example, “We could add this kind of decoration here…”, he always told me no and rejected my proposals. But then, when one day I created a good drawing of Utena and Anthy one next to the other, he told me “Oh, this is what I want!”. That’s how I finally understood what he had in mind. (laughs)
Utena and Anthy were completed first, and then…
Was the character design at the time close to the current Utena and Anthy?
I: Since at that time their characters were almost completely defined, all the others were made starting, backwards, from the two of them. The same happened with the story. Some details of Utena’s plot were drawn from master Saito’s other shoujo manga and expanded upon. Because of this, there are very many parts, like those tied to Akio or to Miki’s sister, that are similar to those in her other works.
S: I knew that the director and screenwriter attentively read my manga, but I had no idea they were creating something similar.
Was the manga created with master Ikuhara?
I: The master (Chiho Saito) always showed me the storyboards. S: He carefully checked the first chapter and at some points he also said “I’ll handle the storyboard!” (laughs)
The magnetic force of the characters steered the story.
The fact that the anime and manga ending were different provoked many different interpretations, and fans discussed it heatedly.
How does the manga’s plot differ from the anime?
I: If you only read the anime’s script, it seems like a completely ridiculous story! (laughs) Not even I, who thought it up, understand it. The anime would be ready in a year, and while it’s true that you can’t really say anything until you try, creating a manga with such undefined details was impossible.
S: At that time I drew without even knowing what would happen next in the story. I absolutely didn’t know what kind of girl Anthy was and because of that I was often surprised, for example, by the fact she had a brother…
I: I didn’t know either! (laughs) I was just throwing down ideas as they came to me! (laughs)
S: I had to draw something that no one had the slightest idea about, knowing that next year the story would be caught up to by the anime and, even if I honestly didn’t understand, they let me continue drawing to my heart's content… (laughs)
I: Although, even though we worked following our own scripts, the fact that master Saito’s manga would be released first was a source of great encouragement for everyone. It would often happen that members of our staff would ask themselves: “What are we even doing?!” (laughs) Nevertheless, the power of the images was very efficient, and when master Saito’s manga was completed, we would all have the same perception of the work. Even if at the end the story had come out surrealistic, we agreed on the fact that it harmonized perfectly with that kind of illustration style. If we had just read the story, it probably wouldn’t have been possible for everyone to have the same impression.
S: Meanwhile I was drawing without even knowing anything… (laughs)
Behind the scenes of the much discussed finale!
I: In the end, absurdly enough, I think the reason the story went so far was entirely because the magnetic force of master Saito’s characters kept us all together.
On that note, did you discuss the respective finales?
S: Since the TV series transmission and the manga’s publication ended at more or less the same time, I also came to know of the anime’s ending through reading the script. Even knowing the anime’s ending, I didn't necessarily have to stick to it, so in the manga version I gave it a slightly different twist.
I: But in the final few episodes of the TV series the story becomes decidedly more surrealistic, so I imagine that you may have wondered how to interpret its meaning, is that right? (laughs)
S: It being images, I was completely fascinated watching them. Though I knew that if I started to interrogate myself on their meaning I wouldn’t have understood anything anymore. So I limited myself to drawing and thinking: “This is like that and that is like this” (laughs) But every week, whenever I watched the anime, I would say to myself: “So this happened… Now what am I supposed to do?”... They would show me 4 episodes a month and every time I drew with the clear perception of having been defeated! (laughs)
After 20 years they announced new self-contained episodes!
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In the first of the new self-contained stories published in installments in “Flowers” since September 2017, Touga Kiryuu, now a gallery owner, and Kyouichi Saionji return to Ohtori Academy…
I: If they had proposed it 5 years ago, I would have probably refused, but since 20 years have gone by… I thought that, even if someone preferred not to read the new “episodes”, the fans that haven’t forgotten about Utena after all this time could consider them as separate stories… And it wouldn’t be bad to do a bit of “fan service”.
S: Even in the movie the story took on a different twist than the manga, so it could be understood like that.
I: I think that the fact that different Utena’s exist isn’t a problem. There was the animated version for TV, the cinematographic version, the manga… If this final one gains a new volume, I think the fans will accept it without much difficulty.
S: I told myself that, since we’re dealing with a subject that has acquired several different forms, that yet another version would also be tolerated. So I decided to try.
The passionate feelings of two artists who brought Utena to life together!
I heard that the new manga is still being worked on... (At the time of this interview)
S: The director started and developed the plot so fast that I told myself “It’ll be an easy victory!” with great confidence. (laughs) Now that I'm working on it, though, I ran into some trouble and, since we’re still dealing with some different aspects, the story isn’t complete yet.
I: I wanted to create something that nobody had ever seen before. Even with the anime it often happened that we completely reset the elements that were acceptable and “normal” in order to adopt, after having done tabula rasa, the new ideas that emerged from them. I imagine it was hard, but I think that the power of the imagery was so effective and the story so incisive specifically because we felt our way through.
S: Doing it again now would be really hard…
I: But now we know what Utena is about, right? (laughs) Without adequate mental preparation, I think we would end up not understanding our respective intentions, but with the rest I think both us and the readers know that in this work the story takes a pretty surreal turn. (laughs)
After a long time, a new Utena collaboration!
How was it like to work on Utena again after all this time?
S: It wasn’t that weird, right?
I: Exactly! At that time master Saito, the staff members, and I already had different ideas about Touga, Saionji, and the others. However from the moment that the characters were now “defined”, we didn't need to hesitate in that sense. On the contrary, we worked while thinking things like “That would be something he’d do, right?”, or “He probably wouldn’t do this…”
What does Utena represent for you?
I: In my case, - and it doesn’t apply only to Utena but to all the works I've created - it’s, let’s say, an initiation, a sort of “rite of passage”. Something that is necessary to overcome to be able to leave the tunnel and keep going forward. I am aware that as a work it isn’t in line with the times, and that at times it goes a bit too far, but it’s as if I felt I wanted to create it at all costs and that, regardless of what obstacles i would have to overcome, if I didn’t overcome it I would in no way be able to continue on my journey.
S: I had always drawn my manga on my own, so this was the first time that I worked in collaboration with someone else. Although of course it reflected my ideas, I was really very impatient to see the final result, and since it’s been appreciated by the public in different forms, I consider it a sort of “gift”.
I: At that time I wanted to create a work with a strong impact, that would forever remain in the hearts of those that saw it. I was actually pleasantly surprised to know that, after 20 years, so many people are still in love with it. During the making of this work, people often asked me who it was intended for, but now that all this time has passed I am truly happy to learn that it has reached so many people.
S: Even the female fans have continued to love Utena for all this time. The work contained all the doubts and anxieties of a staff of twenty-year olds, and I think that reached the female audience in a very direct way, as something personal. Even if it was my manga that provided the dominant themes, I have the impression that it was filled with the feelings of the director and of the entire staff.
The “frustration” of Utena reflects the turmoil of young women
I: I think that the work reflected in part the tension that we felt because of our position back then. And later, since the story talks about a girl and her place in the world, I think this aspect also remained in everyone’s hearts. We interrogated ourselves on things like: “What does a girl aspire to be?” or “Are women in this society pushed to the background?”... At the end of the day, I think the main theme in Utena is “frustration”. And I'm also referring to that of us authors.
S: If we think about it, women experience frustration ever since they are children…
The central element of Utena is…
I: I think the reason that Utena has remained in everyone’s hearts is because this “frustration” is at the center of it. If it had told a story of success, everyone would have forgotten about it quite quickly.
S: When a story talks about success, it might elicit admiration or a desire to emulate it, but if it talks about frustration it gets perceived realistically as something that belongs to us.
The questions of girls are a theme that you’re even now conveying through your work on “Torikae Baya”, is that correct?
S: Probably. I thought that in the Heian period girls were already feeling frustrated… (laughs)
Has working on Utena influenced your subsequent works?
S: Before working on Utena I had no idea how to tell stories about love between girls, but after I did it I told myself “Hey! This isn’t so bad!”. So in Torikae Baya I had fun drawing the wedding between Sarasoju, who was dressed as a man, and the fourth princess. laughs It being a wedding between two women, something that can absolutely not be discovered, it’s a tension-filled scene. I think the experience I had with Utena is reflected in the two young and pretty female characters in Torikae Baya.
And you, master Ikuhara, were you influenced by other works from master Saito?
I: Of course. Even recently I happened to come across an incredible short story by master Saito, but when I talked to her about it she told me: “I really drew such a story?”. “What?! You forgot about it?”, I replied incredulously. (laughs) I couldn’t understand how she could have forgotten that she worked on it!
Towards my thirty-fifth anniversary as a mangaka, after having spent day and night drawing…
S: In the moment that a work comes to life I consider it, like all the others, as a child. However, when it becomes very successful and the readers become fans, then I get attached and I reread it. If it is not particularly appreciated, I think “Ah, it went badly”, and I don't get the desire to read it again. There are many works that I didn't read even once after I had drawn them. (laughs) And that’s how I end up completely forgetting about them…
I: There are probably some authors that possess a sort of innate “wiseness”, but in general, when you create a work, I think you proceed by trying to repeatedly change the theme, characters, or other aspects. It might be that master Saito, unconsciously thinking “In the past it went badly, but if this time I made these changes it could work”, gave different forms to what she had in mind, changing it many times. Maybe this is why she herself doesn’t remember every single short story she’s created in detail.
S: Because very often I end up thinking I've failed… Just as often as I tell myself “This time I have to do it!”, and try to propose the story again after changing a few aspects.
Towards the thirty-fifth anniversary of her career as a mangaka…
Master Saito, speaking of the thirty-fifth anniversary of your career, how do you feel looking back?
S: I have the impression that I draw manga every single day… I have the feeling that the time has really flown by. About the rest, about two weeks after my debut my first publication in installments started in the “Shojo Comic” magazine.
The wedding between two women that [Saito] had fun drawing. The elements acquired from her experience with Utena are reflected in Torikae Baya.
S: My manager at the time counted on me a lot and, despite me not having debuted yet, I had gotten a spot in the magazine to serialize one of my stories. laughs Despite this, the work didn’t get the desired response… Having disappointed the expectations placed on me is the memory I have of my debut as a mangaka. Having started out as a failure, I first learned the bitterness you feel in not being well-received by the public, and because of this I tentatively went along trying to understand how I would get the readers to appreciate my manga.
Marionette, a work in which a solemn and baroque style shines. In Kakan no Madonna an aesthetic and refined view of the world is shown.
And how did you manage to get out of it?
S: I initially got some feedback when I drew stories centered around weddings. At that time I was already married, so I often thought things like: “Oh but marriage isn’t like this!”. It was still useful to understand that romantic stories were appreciated by everyone. At the same time, though, the pride tied to my young age brought me to think: “This is too embarrassing, I can't represent such a banality…! I want to draw something more refined!” Nevertheless, when - without thinking too much about it - I drew that which I considered a “banality”, the public really liked it. That’s when I understood that that could represent a way out for me and I threw myself headfirst into drawing. Having had some success allowed me to take a sigh of relief and, while I was exploring a richer world in search of eroticism and new ideas, Utena was proposed to me.
I: It’s just my impression, but I think that master Saito has loved the baroque world from the start. I believe that the adoption of romantic elements typical of girls' manga of the time was perfectly suited to a rediscovery and reworking of this style.
S: I think taking only what already belonged to me and expressing it as it was was a big mistake. However, it may be that behind the success I had later there was the technique, which I had already learned, through which I learned to "collide" with reality, looking for elements common to me and the readers and making sure to amplify them, adapting them to what I wanted to draw.
I: Since the time of "Marionette" you placed a spotlight on the baroque style, differentiating yourself somewhat from other authors. Let's say it was a kind of historical drama with a slightly different idea of love than the traditional one. In it I sensed something profound, an expanding world.
The feelings they want to transmit to fans. A message from the authors.
S: So I went on, the success of Utena came, the Kanon series was awarded at the Shogakukan Manga Awards, and I felt a sense of accomplishment. Since I had always thought long and hard about manga up to that point, suffering each time, I felt slightly relieved. However, it often happens that success ends up being a downfall, and the same happened to me. (laughs) For a time I completely lost the desire to draw. Nevertheless, I knew I couldn't give up, and, telling myself that as long as I had work to do that meant that my works were in demand, I managed to keep going, and little by little the passion returned as well. Also, since "Flowers" is a magazine in which many veterans publish, the fact that they were allowing me to be a part of it as a newcomer made me feel more comfortable. And so, to this day, I have always been allowed to do more or less as I wished. When I say that I have been drawing manga every single day, I feel that only by doing so have I been able to survive.
A message for the fans.
As a last thing, I would ask you for a message for all the fans.
I: I thank you for following Utena for 20 years. I did not think she would become such a beloved character, but perhaps the positive aspect of this work lies in the fact that, for those who read the manga or saw the anime for the first time it was an experience similar to an initiation. Then there will be those who have only just discovered it, which is also why I see the serialization of the new “episodes” positively; probably, finally, this new work might attract media attention and thus lift someone's spirits... In any case, I hope you enjoy the novelty, and forgive me if anything is not to your liking. (laughs)
S: I too while drawing often think "Please forgive me!" (laughs) The idea of ruining a work with such a splendid and moving ending scares me, but since we have all become adults, I hope for your mercy…(laughs)
I: It being a work that has remained in everyone's hearts, as authors, we happened to wonder with master Saito whether we would not risk ruining it, but we agreed that we should reintroduce Utena once again precisely for those who had continued to love it all this time.
S: I mean, not knowing whether or not in 10 years I will still be able to draw, even from a physical standpoint, I thought maybe it would be my last chance. On the occasion of the 20th anniversary I was given this opportunity and I wanted to take it and put myself to the test.
Master Saito, say something for your fans as well, please.
S: If until now I have managed to make a living working exclusively as a mangaka, it is only thanks to all those who have purchased my volumes. Therefore, I hope that I can continue for a while longer to draw works that will be read with pleasure and that can encourage readers by making them think: "I will try my hardest until next month when I read the next chapter of this manga!" I don't know how to do anything but draw manga, and I do it with the desire to lighten and improve someone's daily life in some way. I truly thank you.
Thank you both!
This interview was originally published in the monthly publication “Flowers” in September of 2017 and has been adapted to this volume edition.
Shoujo Kakumei Utena (Revolutionary Girl Utena) is © Kunihiko Ikuhara, Chiho Saito, Shogakukan and bePapas/TV Tokyo and/or their respective copyright holders. The US release of the Revolutionary Girl Utena series and movie was © Central Park Media and now belongs to Right Stuf. The US release of the Utena manga is © VIZ. The various sources used in this site are noted where their content is presented. Don't sue us, seriously. Blood. Stone.