Vanna's Note:
Story time! This interview was first published in 2017 in Flowers Magazine with the first installment (of three) of Chiho Saito's 20th anniversary follow-up manga, titled After the Revolution. This was concurrent with a new printing of the original five volume Utena manga, and the interview appears in an edited format in the fifth and final volume.

Not long after, an Italian print of the After the Revolution paperback was made, and it included the interview as it had been formatted for the fifth Utena volume in Japan, translated from Japanese to Italian. mint showed off some incredible work translating that on the forum, and that is the text as presented here.

However, you'll notice in the thread, Nagumo begins picking at the two, and ultimately, using the Italian translation to English as a springboard, went back and translated the 2017 Flowers Magazine version of the interview from Japanese, with editing by Ayu Ohseki. Because some of the differences may very well have been choices made by the translators making the Italian print, I decided to make pages for both versions of the interview. Check out the thread for Nagumo's translations of the bits of character sheets and such that are exclusive to the magazine version, and if you really want the fine dining, the character design sheets exclusive to the fourth volume got kinda mashed together for the magazine, but if you check the gallery here you'll find a LOT of those pages translated!!

Should you wish to check our work, the Japanese language interview scans from both publications are in Historia Arcana!

Note: I am using the pictures provided by mimi of the Italian print, the images are identical, please give me a break, lmao.

Volume 5 of the 2018 Japanese Utena reprint, translated by Nagumo
Based on the the After the Revolution Italian 2020 print translated by mimi

2017 Special Talk Chiho Saito and Kunihiko Ikuhara Interview!

There were a lot of objects on display at Ms. Saitou’s house... There was even a beautiful “Utena Room”!♡ It’s been 20 years since the release of Utena, la fillette révolutionnaire. Manga author Chiho Saitou and anime director Kunihiko Ikuhara, who at one point worked together, told us everything, from their first meeting to the behind the scenes stuff that we can only now talk about!

The illustration that inspired Utena

Director Ikuhara, why did you ask Ms. Saitou to do the character design for Utena?

Ikuhara (I from here on out): At that time, I had finished working on the anime Sailor Moon, and for my next work I was considering my own original project. However, I didn’t think it’d be a story about a costumed girl doing something or another. In that troubled time, I happened to enter a bookshop and out of the corner of my eye I saw the cover of the “Petit Comic” magazine issue illustrated by Ms. Saitou. At that point, inspiration struck, like: “Ah, maybe she’s the one!” Instinctively, I told myself, “If I could ask this illustrator to design my characters, everything might just click into place!” Thus I got rid of everything I’d thought of up to that point and convinced myself my new work would be a girls’ anime centered on this visual style.

Saito (S from here on out): Before then, you were thinking of something very different than what would eventually become Utena, right?

I: Maybe the name “Utena” already existed. I had thought of a lot of variants, among which was a kindergarten teacher heroine! (laughs) I was very indecisive. I didn't know if it was worth it to carry on a story with a young girl as the protagonist, but the moment I came across Ms. Saitou's illustration, I simply fell in love. It wasn’t rational; I just impulsively thought, “This is it! This way I can create a fantastic project for sure!”

Kunihiko Ikuhara He is active in different fields, working as an anime and film director and music producer. He directed the Sailor Moon animated series and founded the creative group “Be-Papas”. He directed Revolutionary Girl Utena, Mawaru-Penguindrum, Yurikuma Arashi and many more.

So you were inspired by an illustration?

I: In my case, it happens quite often. Generally I'm a logical kind of guy, but I like drawings imbued with a strong energy capable of dismantling my reasoning. Ms. Saitou’s illustration possessed that power and was able to sweep away the logic that I’d presumptuously elaborated in my mind.

A meeting that started with a drawing: the instant in which Utena came to life

Ms. Saitou, what did you feel when you heard that Director Ikuhara wanted to speak with you?

S: At first, the editor of “Petit Comic” told me the director of Sailor Moon and his staff wanted to ask me to create the character designs for a video game they were planning on making. “Sailor Moon’s director!?” I exclaimed, surprised. Then I replied, “I’ll meet him immediately!” (laughs)

I: To be honest, that video game was a lie. (laughs) I lied because I feared if I said at the start it was for an anime, the people around Ms. Saitou would’ve been on guard. That’s why I decided to play the video game card at first. I’d planned to tell her later on, while working on it, that the project had been changed into an animated series. (laughs)

Chiho Saito She debuted in 1982 with the work The Sword and the Mademoiselle. In 1996, Kanon was one of the winners of the forty-second Shogakukan Manga Awards. A lot of her works, which include Bronze Angel, Ice Forest and the popular Torikae Baya, were published in the magazine Monthly Flowers.

S: And that's how we decided that I would do the character design. However, at first I didn't receive many specific instructions. He really only asked me to keep the style of my previous work, Waltz in a White Dress.

The world of Utena was developed starting from the character design.

I: I still have all of Ms. Saitou's letters and my sketches from that period. Back then, e-mails didn't exist, so we exchanged opinions via fax. However, at first the project wasn't well defined; I was kind of making it up as we went along. I felt bad about it, but since I was inspired by her illustrations, I was going to modify the story based on her art.

S: I was so confused at first because of that. (laughs) The director would make all sorts of requests, but from the beginning of our long back and forth, I was in the dark. I didn’t realize at all that he wanted me to make some drawings to gain ideas from them.

I: From my point of view, the story could only take shape after the design was done. The first step was the design of the characters, and it was crucial that I fall in love with those designs. Until that happened, I couldn’t come up with any details about the story or characters. In other words, since I didn't have any ideas at first, I made the crazy request that she inspire me with something I could fall in love with. (laughs)

S: Meaning, without that enchanting atmosphere, my drawings wouldn’t fire up his interest. (laughs) I didn’t realize he wanted that from me; I thought he just wanted character designs. So every time I showed him a drawing and suggested, for example, “What do you think about adding this decoration here?” he’d always go, “No way,” and never approved of them. But then one day I created a good drawing of Utena and Anthy huddled up to each other, and he told me, “This is it!!” That’s how I finally understood what he had in mind. (laughs)

Utena and Anthy were completed first, and then…

Was the character design at the time close to the current Utena and Anthy?

I: Since at that time their characters were almost completely defined, all the others were made starting backwards from the two of them. The same happened with the story. Some details of Utena’s plot were drawn from Ms. Saitou’s other girls’ manga and expanded upon. Because of this, there are very many parts, like those tied to Akio or to Miki’s sister, that are similar to those in her other works.

S: I knew that the director and screenwriter attentively read my manga, but I had no idea they were using it like that.

Was the manga created with Director Ikuhara?

I: She always showed me the storyboards.

S: He carefully checked the first chapter, and at some points he also said, “I’ll handle the storyboard!” (laughs)

The magnetism of the characters steered the story.

I: Sometimes I even told her what size to make the bigger panels, right? (laughs) Ms. Saitou always drew her manga starting from the story rather than the characters. However, since in the anime I initially gave more importance to the characters, I wanted the panels to be set up in such a way to show them as much as possible. That’s why I intervened in managing the panel work at some points.

How does the manga’s plot differ from the anime?

I:Well, if you only read the anime’s script, it seems like such a surreal story! (laughs) Not even I understand it, and I’m the one who thought it up. Sure, you don’t know how things will work out until you give them a try, but the anime had a year to get ready. I couldn’t really say decisively what it was like, and so basing the manga on my word was the definition of impossible.

S: At that time, I drew without even knowing what would happen next in the story. I absolutely didn’t know what kind of girl Anthy was, much less her true identity, and so I’d get shocked like, “Huh? Wait, she has a brother?”

I: I didn’t know either! (laughs) I was just throwing down ideas as they came to me! (laughs)

S: I had to draw something that no one had the slightest idea about, knowing that the anime would catch up to the manga in a year. Yet even if I didn’t understand a thing, they let me continue drawing to my heart's content… (laughs)

I: Still, even though we worked following our own scripts, the fact that Ms. Saitou’s manga would be released first was a source of great encouragement for everyone. Members of our staff would often ask themselves, “What are we even making?!” (laughs) The power of her visuals was indeed effective. When she completed the manga, we all managed to reach the same understanding of the work. Even if the story had ultimately come out surrealistic, we agreed on the fact that it harmonized perfectly with her illustration style. If we had just read the story, it probably wouldn’t have been possible for everyone to have the same impression.

S: Meanwhile I was drawing without even knowing anything… (laughs)

I: In the end, absurdly enough, I think the reason the story went so far was entirely because the magnetism of Ms. Saitou’s characters kept us all together.

Behind the scenes of the much-discussed finale!

On that note, did you discuss the respective finales?

S:Since the TV series transmission and the manga’s publication ended at more or less the same time, I got to learn how the show would end by reading the script. Despite knowing it, though, I didn't necessarily have to stick to it, so in the manga version I gave it a slightly different twist.

I: But in the final few episodes of the TV series, the story becomes decidedly more surrealistic, so I imagine that you may have wondered how to interpret its meaning, is that right? (laughs)

S: It being images, I was completely spellbound watching them. However, I knew that if I started to interrogate myself on their meaning I wouldn’t have understood anything anymore. So I limited myself to drawing and thinking, “The manga is the manga, the anime is the anime.” (laughs) But every week, whenever I watched the anime, I would say to myself: “So, that just happened… Now what do I do?!”... They would show me 4 episodes a month and every time I drew with the clear perception of having been defeated! (laughs)

After 20 years, they announced a new self-contained manga!

What prompted you to create new Utena stories and publish them in Monthly Flowers?

S: I was well aware that this year would be the 20th anniversary of the series broadcast. That was when the editorial team of Flowers suggested I draw something to mark the occasion. After all, as the author of the Utena manga, it was my responsibility! (laughs)

I: If they’d proposed it five years ago, I would have probably refused, but since 20 years have gone by… I thought that, even if someone preferred not to read the new manga, the fans that haven’t forgotten about Utena after all this time could consider them as separate stories. Plus, it wouldn’t be bad to do a bit of fan service.

S: The movie’s story took on a different twist from other versions, so it could be understood as being like that.

I: I think it’s fine that different versions of Utena exist. There was the TV version, the movie version, the manga… If the manga gets a new version, I think the fans will accept it without much difficulty.

S: I told myself that, since this is a story that’s had so many unique variations, yet another version would also be tolerated. So I decided to try.

I heard that the new manga is still being worked on... (At the time of this interview)

S: The director started and developed the plot so fast that I told myself with great confidence, “This’ll be a cinch!” (laughs) Now that I'm working on it, though, I ran into some trouble. Since we’re still dealing with some different aspects, the story isn’t complete yet.

I: I wanted to create something that nobody had ever seen before. When working on the anime, we'd all come to a consensus on how things usually go, then completely wipe that off the board and restart with a clean slate. We'd often twist the ideas on their head and then use them. It was difficult, but I think that the power of the imagery was so effective and the story so incisive specifically due to this experimentation.

S: Doing it again now would be really hard…

I: But now we know what Utena is about, right? (laughs) Without adequate mental preparation, I think we would end up not understanding our respective intentions, but with the rest I think both we and the readers know that the story takes a pretty surreal turn in this work. (laughs)

The passionate feelings of the two artists who brought Utena to life together!

How was it like to work on Utena again after all this time?
S: It wasn’t that weird, right?

I: Exactly! At that time, Ms. Saitou, the staff members, and I already had different ideas about who Touga, Saionji, and the others were. But now that the characters are fully defined, we don’t need to hesitate in that sense. On the contrary, we worked while thinking things like, “That’s something he’d do, right?” or, “He probably wouldn’t do this…”

After a long time, a new Utena collaboration!

What is Utena to you two?

I: In my case--and it applies not just to Utena but to all the works I've created--it’s, let’s say, an “initiation,” or maybe a rite of passage. Something I must see to the end, a tunnel I have to pass through, so I can keep going forward. I am aware that as a work it isn’t in line with the times, and that at times it goes a bit too far, but I wanted to create it at all costs, and regardless of what troubles I’d face, if I didn’t overcome this rite of passage, I would in no way be able to continue on my journey.

S: I had always drawn my manga on my own, so this was the first time that I worked in collaboration with someone else. Although of course it reflected my ideas, I was really very eager to see the final result. Since it’s been appreciated by the public in different forms, I consider it a sort of “gift.”

I: At that time I wanted to create a work with a strong impact, that would forever remain in the hearts of those that saw it. I was actually pleasantly surprised to know that, after 20 years, so many people are still in love with it. During the making of this work, people often asked me who it was intended for, but now that all this time has passed I am truly happy to learn that it has touched so many people.

S: Even the female fans have continued to love Utena for all this time. The work contained all the doubts and anxieties of a staff of twenty-somethings, and I think that reached the female audience in a very direct way as something personal. Even if it was my manga that provided the dominant themes, I have the impression that it was filled with the feelings of the director and the entire staff.

The “frustration” of Utena reflects the turmoil of young women

I: I think that the work reflected in part the tension that we felt because of our position back then. And later, since the story talks about a girl and her place in the world, I think this aspect also remained in everyone’s hearts. We interrogated ourselves on things like: “What does a girl aspire to be?” or “Are women in this society pushed to the background?” At the end of the day, I think the main theme in Utena is “frustration.” And I'm also referring to that of us creators.

S: If we think about it, women experience frustration ever since they are children…

I: I think the reason that Utena has remained in everyone’s hearts is because this “frustration” is at the center of it. If it had told a story of success, everyone would have forgotten about it quite quickly.

S: When a story talks about success, it might elicit admiration or a desire to emulate it, but if it talks about frustration it gets perceived as something people can relate to.

The questions of girls are a theme that you’re even now conveying through your work on “Torikae Baya”, is that correct?

S: Probably. I thought that in the Heian period girls were already feeling frustrated… (laughs)

Has working on Utena influenced your subsequent works?

S: Before working on Utena, I had no idea how to tell stories about love between girls, but after I did it I told myself, “Hey! This isn’t so bad!” So in Torikae Baya, I had fun drawing the wedding between Sarasouju, who was dressed as a man, and the Fourth Princess. (laughs) It being a wedding between two women, something that can absolutely not be discovered, it’s a tense scene. I think the experience I had with Utena is reflected in the two young and pretty female characters in Torikae Baya.

And you, Director Ikuhara, were you influenced by other works from Ms. Saitou?

I: Of course. Even recently I happened to come across an incredible short story by Ms. Saitou, but when I talked to her about it, she told me, “Did I really draw a story like that?” Incredulous, I replied, “Whaaat?! You forgot about it?!” (laughs) I couldn’t understand how she could have forgotten that she worked on it!

Towards my thirty-fifth anniversary as a mangaka, after having spent day and night drawing…

S: In the moment that any of my works comes to life, I consider it my baby. If it becomes very successful and the readers become fans, then I get attached and sometimes I re-read it, but if it is not particularly appreciated, I think, “Ah, it went badly,” and I don't get the desire to read it again at all. There are many works that I never read even once after I had drawn them. (laughs) And that’s how I end up completely forgetting about them.

I: There might be some creators who possess an infinite well of ideas, but in my opinion, most have a habit of repeating their themes and characters. They unconsciously think, "This didn't work last time, but this time if I make these changes and move things around, it might go better." Maybe that's what Ms. Saitou unconsciously does, repeating but giving them different forms. And so that's why she doesn't remember the details of every story she's created.

S: Very often I end up thinking I've failed--and just as often, I’ll tell myself, “I’ll get it right this time!” and try to propose the story again after changing a few aspects.

Towards the thirty-fifth anniversary of her career as a mangaka…

Ms. Saitou, speaking of the thirty-fifth anniversary of your career, how do you feel looking back?

S: I have the impression that I draw manga every single day… I have the feeling that the time has really flown by. About two weeks after publishing my debut story in "Shoujo Comic" magazine, they started serialization.

I: What? Right after your debut?!

S: The manager at the time had high hopes for me and, despite me not having debuted yet, gave me a spot in the magazine to serialize one of my stories. (laughs) But it was a total bust. It didn't get popular at all. Disappointing them is how I remember my debut as a mangaka. Having started out as a failure, I first learned the bitterness you feel in not being well-received by the public, and because of this I fumbled my way through trying to understand how to get readers to appreciate my manga.

And how did you manage to get out of it?

S: I initially got some feedback when I drew stories centered around weddings. At that time I was already married, so I often thought things like, “Oh, but marriage isn’t like this!” It was still useful to understand that everyone loves lovey-dovey romances, but at the same time, my youthful pride brought me to think, “I can’t put out something so cliche, it’s too embarrassing! I want to draw something more refined!” Nevertheless, when I drew what I considered cliche without thinking too hard about it, the public ate it up. That’s when I understood how I could survive as a mangaka, and I threw myself headfirst into drawing. After a bit of success, I could breathe a little easier, and so I was entering a richer world to explore eroticism when I received the offer to work on Utena.

I: It’s just my impression, but I think that Ms. Saitou has always loved the baroque world. I believe that the adoption of romantic elements typical of girls' manga of the time was perfectly suited to a rediscovery and reintroduction of this style.

S: I think only putting what I had in me and drawing it out was a big mistake, but I managed to find success with a technique I mastered back then. Namely, I learned to try to look for elements of commonality between me and the readers by letting those desires collide and amplifying them, then adapting them to what I wanted to draw.

I: Ever since you drew Another Marionette, you’ve placed a spotlight on the baroque style, which differentiated you somewhat from other authors. Let's say it was a kind of historical drama with a slightly different idea of love than the traditional one. In it I sensed something profound, an expanding world.

S: So I went on, the success of Utena came, the Kanon series was awarded at the Shogakukan Manga Awards, and I felt a sense of accomplishment. Since I had always thought long and hard about manga up to that point, suffering each time, I felt slightly relieved. However, it often happens that success leads to one’s downfall, and the same happened to me. (laughs) For a time I completely lost the desire to draw. Nevertheless, I knew I couldn't give up, and, telling myself that as long as I had work to do that meant that my works were in demand, I managed to keep going, and gradually my passion returned as well. Also, since Flowers is a magazine in which many veterans publish, the fact that they were allowing me to be a part of it as a newcomer made me feel more comfortable. And so, to this day, I have always been allowed to do more or less as I wished. Even so, to think I'd be able to draw manga every single day for so long... I feel like I’ve done a good job surviving up ‘til now.

The feelings they want to transmit to fans. A message from the authors:

A message for the fans.

To close us out, could you please give us a message for all the fans?
I: I thank you for following Utena for 20 years. I never imagined she’d become such a beloved character, but perhaps the positive aspect of this work lies in the fact that, for those who read the manga or saw the anime for the first time, it was an experience similar to an initiation. Then there will be those who’ve only just discovered it, which is also why I see the serialization of the new “episodes” positively; probably, finally, this new work might attract media attention and thus lift someone's spirits... In any case, I hope you enjoy the novelty, and forgive me if anything is not to your liking. (laughs)

S: I admit, while I was drawing, I too kind of thought, "Please forgive me!" (laughs) The idea of ruining a work with such a splendid and moving ending scares me, but since we have all become adults, I pray for your mercy… (laughs)

I: It being a work that has remained in everyone's hearts, as authors, we happened to wonder with Ms. Saitou whether we would not risk ruining it, but we agreed that we should reintroduce Utena once again precisely for those who had continued to love it all this time.

S: I mean, I don't know if I'll be physically able to draw in ten years, so I thought it might be my last chance. I was given this opportunity to celebrate the 20th anniversary and I wanted to take it and put myself to the test.

Ms. Saitou, please say something for your fans as well.

S: If I have managed to make a living working exclusively as a mangaka up ‘til now, it is only thanks to all those who have purchased my volumes. Therefore, I hope that I can continue for a while longer to draw works that will be read with pleasure and that can encourage readers by making them think, "I will try my hardest until I read next month's chapter of this manga!" I don't know how to do anything but draw manga, and I do it with the desire to lighten and improve someone's daily life in some way. I truly thank you.

Thank you both!



The new and highly anticipated Revolutionary Girl Utena comic published in Monthly Flowers will be released in 2018!

For more information on this new work, please check future issues of Monthly Flowers magazine and the official website.

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This interview was originally published in the September 2017 issue of Monthly Flowers and has been adapted to this volume edition.

Illustration / Saitou Chiho
Design / Kase Yurie (Cakes and Ale)
Layout / Eguchi Ayako (Prospect)




Shoujo Kakumei Utena (Revolutionary Girl Utena) is © Kunihiko Ikuhara, Chiho Saito, Shogakukan and bePapas/TV Tokyo and/or their respective copyright holders. The US release of the Revolutionary Girl Utena series and movie was © Central Park Media and now belongs to Right Stuf. The US release of the Utena manga is © VIZ. The various sources used in this site are noted where their content is presented. Don't sue us, seriously. Blood. Stone.