I'll totally be following this thread~
I don't know if it would be easy to add analysis until after you watch the show. A lot of stuff from the beginning comes back later in ways you would not expect. I find it really hard not to talk about all that stuff.

Jacrad wrote:

I'll totally be following this thread~
I don't know if it would be easy to add analysis until after you watch the show. A lot of stuff from the beginning comes back later in ways you would not expect. I find it really hard not to talk about all that stuff.

Awesome Like I said, a lot of it will probably be me registering my incomprehension. I'll try to make it interesting incomprehension!

Yasha wrote:

I'll join you. I haven't watched the show in ages.

I feel like I should say a couple things though-- if you are not in love with deep readings, you may not get much out of SKU. The people who take the show at face value tend to either fall in love with the yuri aspect-- which is not my thing (says the girl married to a girl) but fair enough-- or end up disliking SKU because it doesn't make sense.

Second thing you need to know, discussions can get passionate. Not always, but sometimes.

Gotcha, thank you for the heads up! From reputation I know SKU to be a highly rewarding series, but also that it requires a lot of patience and a lot of attention - also, from reputation, I know that I really don't know what I'm letting myself in for, but I'm looking forward to it. Always better to be confused than bored, eh?

Yasha wrote:

Don't worry about covering old territory, if we were opposed to that here Gio and I wouldn't be running the site still after 13 years. And seriously, I'm looking forward to your insights and reactions!

Edit: Also, Meester Pigvig, your name is very well known to me. Silflay hraka, u embleer rah!

"Ees finish Meester Voundvort, ya?"

So. I thought I might watch the first episode tonight and write up my super-important thoughts, to be posted tonight or maybe tomorrow. Given social obligations I think I can manage an episode every couple of days. I have the feeling that marathoning SKU would be an awful idea, so certainly not any more frequently than that. Anyone who's inclined to comment, please do, I would be so grateful

I really don't know anything about the series. There is a girl revolutionary, or perhaps a revolutionary girl, and her name is Utena. (Apparently roses are important.) It would be really nice if people could avoid spoilers, even of the I-won't-spoil-it-but-the-next-episode-is-INCREDIBLE-and-or-INTENSE variety, as I'd like to go in blind, but this place is your playground, so I won't complain if anyone wants to barrack a little bit. As I said, I'd be grateful for anyone's input.

So. Episode One. Here I go.

[hits play]

Know what? I think I'll join you as well. It's been ages since I watched it and I keep promising myself that one day I might actually write some of those essays that keep bubbling away in the back of my brain.

Ooh!  I always like seeing people experience the series for the first time.  You seem like someone who can handle it, too.  That's nice.

Hoi hoi u umbleer hrair

Yasha wrote:

If you like, I will curate this thread for spoiler removal. There's not much I can do about the rest of the site.

Aw, thank you. I know you guys have all seen it before, and that the show's almost twenty(?) years old, so obviously if I come across a spoiler, it's hardly anyone's fault.

crystalwren wrote:

Know what? I think I'll join you as well. It's been ages since I watched it and I keep promising myself that one day I might actually write some of those essays that keep bubbling away in the back of my brain.

Excellent! Hopefully I'll be able to read and understand them before too long.

Kita-Ysabell wrote:

Ooh!  I always like seeing people experience the series for the first time.  You seem like someone who can handle it, too.  That's nice.

Hoi hoi u umbleer hrair

This forum is clearly full of people with impeccable taste! It remains to be seen if I can handle it, I guess. Fingers crossed.

Nocturnalux wrote:

How cool to follow a viewer experiencing Utena for the very first time! I'm mid-rewatching the series at the moment so I'll be following this as well. Huge Evangelion fan here as well, by the way.

"Kimochi warui..."



I've done this in quite long form. It's rather verbose, though not exactly perspicacious. Future posts may well be a bit shorter as I learn what's important and what isn't. Will you guys tell me if it's entertaining to watch me react, or annoying to watch me butcher a story you know well?

= = = = =

That's the first time I've gone back to watch the OP again before the episode begins. I didn't jump up and dance or anything - really! - but I have the lingering feeling that at some point in the future this is going to come up on shuffle and my friends are going to judge me. The lyrics are quite sinister, aren't they? Or is that an artefact of the translation? For such an upbeat song - okay, I probably will end up having a bit of a boogie to this at some point - there seems to be a lot of reference to loss, sundering, changing or shifting (or discarding) of identity... perhaps sinister isn't the right word. Dense might be better.

So much is happening onscreen, I don't know what to make of any of it yet. I recognize our leads, though. Utena and Anthy. Digging the art style. They're thrown into focus against faceless crowds - Utena against the backs of males, Anthy against those of females. We invade their private time briefly as they sprawl on what looks like a forest floor, cradling a white rose between their fingers. Then...

...hmm.

We've been introduced to more characters, all but one of whom is armed, and then a castle is torn apart, and then Utena and Anthy appear to be leading a cavalry charge circa 1200 CE, through the inverted towers of a castle in the sky.

Fuck yes.

We're being told a story now, with all the hallmarks of a fairy tale. From what little I know, fairy tales tend to have incredibly complex histories, and what you hear isn't necessarily what's being said. And lo:

"Little one, who bears up alone in such deep sorrow. Never lose that strength or nobility, even when you grow up. I give you this to remember this day. We will meet again. This ring will lead you to me, one day."

According to our narrator, that's all well and good. Random travelling prince, springing out on recently-bereaved princesses. Foisting rings upon them. But what's this? The princess has vowed to become a prince:

"But was that really such a good idea?"

Under the rules of fairy tales, straying out of boundaries - real or imagined - leads to being devoured by bears. (Alright, not every time, but you know what I mean...) Whether it's a good idea under the rules of SKU remains to be seen.

DUEL ONE: The Rose Bride.

A girl named Wakaba is waiting for her boyfriend - sorry, "boyfriend", according to a passer-by. Said boyfriend is clearly in trouble now. Pan across to a shining edifice upon a hill - Ohtori Academy. And I am now ominously aware of the gigantic marble phallus in the centre of the campus.

Hello, Utena! Oh dear, you're catching hell for your clothes. And you're standing your ground - okay, your teacher has a bogus reason, but you are wearing the least uniform uniform of all time.

(Whatever it looks like to me, the teacher sees it as a boy's uniform. In fact, Utena does too.)

She's definitely popular. The guys want to be her, the girls want her - or idolize her, which perhaps isn't the same thing. They're all very impressed with how she presents herself. Let's see, she doesn't want to join the guys' basketball team because

One (1): She's a girl;
Two (2): She doesn't want their gross boy-sweat all over her.

She clarifies (I think) that she's not dressed as a guy, she's dressed as a prince - a noble prince who rescues princesses. She's female-identifying, she's a girl, dressed as a prince, in boys' clothes. She doesn't associate 'prince' with 'dude'. Her attitude towards boy-sweat, I dunno what I can read into that. Perhaps girl-sweat wouldn't gross her out. Insufficient information for me to grab hold of the wrong end of the stick and begin beating about the bush with it.

Utena can smell roses. And there they are, bordering our shot of the greenhouse from the OP. Hello, Anthy! Whatcha up to? Ah, tending roses? See, I said roses were important - clearly I understand everything about this show.

"Why does the scent of roses always make me think of the past?" Brief segue to say this reminded me of a Primo Levi story about a master chemist who bottles memories by synthesizing their smells. It's a lovely little thing.

Oh, look, there's green-haired-chap-from-OP.

I wasn't sure how to represent this - like, staged shock, or hyperbole, or whatever. You guys have all seen it, and perhaps it isn't shocking after the first time? It looks painful, I mean in such a florid art style it looks absolutely brutal. I have now been effectively conditioned into hating him (for better or worse) and if there's any justice there is a special hell for people who murder human happiness like that.

Utena reacts with (somewhat subdued) shock and looks as if she's about to intervene, but before green-haired-chap can hit Anthy again, red-haired-chap-from-OP grabs his wrist. As an aside, my hearing's pretty bad, but I think the sound effect was the same for the back-handed strike and the wrist-grab.

Guess you're off the hook, UtenaOH HELLO AGAIN WAKABA. I love how the art style glitches out completely for their expressions. Looks like Wakaba's boyfriend isn't really in any trouble, except for possibly being bowled out of a window via hugs.

Okay, the boys have names now. Hello Touga, Saionji. And they're on the student council, hence the marginally less humiliating uniforms. Wakaba thinks Anthy (first mention of her name, right?) is weird and Saionji is cool. Oh dear.

Cut to Sinister Meeting of Sinister People. Very interesting set design. Lots of dead/empty space in the establishing shot. Let's see... people who wear the rose seal are all chosen members. That would be the student council, then? Anthy has been engaged to Saionji - that in itself is creepy as all hell. Am I parsing this right? She has been engaged to many people, against her will?

Apparently that doesn't mean he's free to do as he pleases with her - yeah, no shit. One of the council, blue-haired-chap-from-OP (I'll stop the overly long names now...) actually snaps his pencil when considering the implications. But is that empathy or the thought he might be engaged to her too, one day?

"The student council exists by the will of End of the World. If they learn of this, they won't let it go lightly." I'm not taking this as a ringing endorsement of End of the World's moral compass. In fact I'm picturing SEELE merrily signing off on Operation Child Abuse. Whatever, Saionji doesn't care. He paws at and tugs Anthy around - and Anthy acceeds, meekly saying that she is Saionji-sama's bride. (My subtitles have that as Master Saionji, is that accurate?)

00:03:12 - "Lovelove..." I wound it back, and saw Wakaba waiting for Utena at 00:03:12. I dunno, that doesn't really sync up... I actually did hear about the stopwatch that holds the secrets of the universe.

Saionji continues dramatically and expansively not caring, daring the student council to duel him for Anthy. Touga cautions him that a new duellist will be arriving soon...

= = = = =

Halfway through! I'm going to break off here briefly, just to get something posted. Part two will follow reasonably shortly - I'm going to watch it again, for the simple reason that I gradually stopped taking notes and just stared at the screen until the ED rolled. I think I love this show. I can't pretend to understand everything I've seen, but I like it. I haven't been bored once.

More soon.

We rejoin Utena with Wakaba, lounging about on a grass slope. I forgot to mention Utena's rose ring earlier, but Wakaba kindly picks up the slack and draws our attention to it. So, it's an Ohtori Academy ring? Utena draws attention to Wakaba's forehead, but Wakaba doesn't seem to mind.

On their relationship, Utena doesn't seem to mind that Wakaba refers to her as her boyfriend. I'm guessing best friends with no sense of personal space, rather than a couple. Alternatively, they are a couple, but either casual enough that crushing on other people is accepted, or simply too young to put any particular significance on being a couple.

Ooh, a crowd - that's never a bad thing in high school. A bunch of guys having a good old sneer over a letter that's been pinned up on the notice board. Utena discovers it's a love letter to Saionji, realizes that Wakaba wrote it and shifts gears into Active Prince - she seems more appalled by the casual cruelty of Saionji pinning up this letter than by the direct cruelty of him striking Anthy. Perhaps she'd just had time to get good and angry at him.

(Tangent: "A real man wouldn't read it!" However other people view her - and in fact everybody, including Utena, seem to agree that she's a girl - Utena's conception of gender roles seems to be quite conventional. That said, the crowd is exclusively male. And, yes - it's incredibly cruel and insensitive to make light of someone's more tender thoughts being broadcast to an uncaring audience.)

Hi Saionji. We get confirmation of his casual cruelty - he claims not to know if the letter pinned up was one of his, fails to see how it's important, then twists the knife by having a snide about the content.

Utena challenges him - and so becomes the new duelist we just heard about. So, the council knew there'd be a new challenger, but not who it would be. Utena obviously had no idea. Did End of the World know it'd be Utena? Was it pre-destined, or did there just have to be another duelist - was Saionji being a tool to Wakaba just a catalyst that made Utena a duelist, or was she always going to be a duelist?

Well, I suppose one answer is that Utena is the MC, so who else would it be - and that'll do for now.

They'll do battle in the dueling arena forest after classes, and-

Dueling arena forest. The student council, and therefore End of the World, really are important, aren't they? The student body and the council - which one is an appendage of the other?

We're treated to a shadowplay which I think is summarizing the episode so far? We seem to be back in fairy tale logic, brave hero and all. "Do you know what they are? Do you know? Do you know?" Creepy and charming all at once, we're definitely in big bad wolf territory...

Okay, Utena's armed and ready to Prince Out. I'm not going to painstakingly type out the staircase sequence because

One (1): I can't quite wrap my head around it just yet;
Two (2): You know what I'm talking about. What the actual. Though apparently it's easiest to think of the castle as a trick of the light. Hell of a trick.

I'm not sure whether to describe the lyrics as just dense or actual word salad, but I immensely enjoyed the song. It seems to treat 'apocalypse' as the End - of the World, perhaps? The end of time, the end of hope... not sure. I like that Utena ascended to weird geometry, rather than descending. The bright colours of the sky lend it a whole daytime-gone-wrong nightmarishness.

Saionji didn't expect Utena to own a rose seal ring, implying those are a council affectation. Utena got hers from the prince (or, if what she said earlier is more reliable, she remembers someone telling her the ring would lead her to someone one day - I've just checked and she said "It was so long ago that I can hardly remember it." Probably the prince, maybe not.)

Aha, Anthy's wearing her OP outfit. Her Bride clothes, I suppose - apparently that's why she's present, though I don't see that she gets anything out of it. Saionji really does bark at her, doesn't he? Short, clipped, easily followed sentences - he's about to fight Utena and yet, even though he clearly doesn't respect her, either for her gender or her role in this moment, or even just because she isn't him, he does at least use his words.

Anthy fits them both up with roses, and Utena notes that Anthy carries the same rose scent as the memories of her prince. Smells matter! Anthy explains the rules, and wishes Utena luck, then Saionji throws a big boy sulk.

I think it's just me pre-judging the content of the show based on the art style, but even though I was half-expecting him to hit her, it did shock me.

Saionji chews Anthy out, really committed to the idea that what he's doing is fine and Anthy... begs for forgiveness. I note that even if End of the World wouldn't approve of his abuse, and the council dislike it, no one but Utena is going to do anything about it - even Anthy seems to accept that Saionji is entitled to do that if he feels like it. Ouch, man.

So. The duel.

"Rose of the noble castle, power of Dios that sleeps within me - heed your master and come forth!"

Regarding the translation, is there any way of reading that in which Anthy is the master, not Saionji? If not, there's a lot of awful in that moment. (I think. I might be wrong.)

Though I like the aesthetic of the sword being drawn from the chest.

Bells toll, our fighters take their poses, and I was wrong to describe Zettai Unmei Mokushiroku as word salad - please tell me the soundtrack stays this good.

Saionji keeps up the trash-talking, firing really... mis-aimed shots at Utena, or they strike me that way. It feels like he's trying to cut through the surface projection of a prince come to rescue a princess, not realizing there's just more prince under the surface. He does break her sword though. Not that it stops Utena for long.

"Little one, who bears up alone in such deep sorrow. Never lose that strength or nobility, even when you grow up."

Utena tenses. Utena charges. Utena yells. Of course, Utena wins.

Saionji's existential shock is only deepened by Anthy's cheerful - polite - dismissal. Did she need Utena to win for that to happen? Is is that she wouldn't just say that until someone had 'won' her, or that she really couldn't? Or both: I can't and I won't.

Touga has been watching with opera glasses. I suppose they're appropriate, because they're used to give a wide field of view over a stage. Utena, you've lit the fire to his heart. Baby.

Back in plausible-geometry land, our heroine appears to have decided to file the whole affair under Too Weird To Opine Upon - but here comes Anthy.

And now Anthy belongs to Utena.

Well, that can't possibly go horribly wrong.

= = = = =

Yasha wrote:

Read your write-up so far, and all I can say is you are awesome and don't cut anything short.

Unless you want me to, I'm not going to comment on a lot of it... tbh everything you have seen so far is just one layer of many. I want you to see that for yourself.

Thank you so much, I really appreciate that. I mean, there's so much going on here, and I can see less than half. Like, I can see the shape of the stuff that's flying over my head and that's about it, which I don't resent at all. I like it when shows assume intelligence on the part of their viewers, and I hope I can pick up on more as I go along. Definite repeated viewing required, though.

Yasha wrote:

...actually, you know what, I'll watch along with you and I'll comment on what I think is utterly safe, but if you're stuck for a deeper reading or you don't understand what happened, let me know. I've found myself with a lot of free time so I'll be checking this very regularly.

That's really kind of you, thanks a lot! I think my first run through the show will be relatively shallow, sadly. I think it's going to take me a long time to find deeper readings for what's happening, but I'm looking forward to the process. To an extent I can't say I understood the episode at all, but I'm thinking that the next couple of episodes will help me establish context for the characters and their motivations. Well, hoping.

Neat little reaction to the episode: I'm trying to avoid hyperbole because I don't think it's necessary for a show I like to be the best thing ever, and because making that leap from "I'm enjoying this" to "this is amazing" after one episode kind of implies that my critical faculties (which I'm not exactly flush with) are going out the window.

When I was eighteen or so, I'd gotten a little over halfway through Evangelion before I realized, in a relatively short space of time, that I didn't just enjoy the show - it was going to be really important to me. I feel like that again after one episode of SKU, and I do realize that's pretentious as all hell but it's true, and I did not expect to feel like that about a television show again.

This hype train has no brakes. Choo-Choo.

(Edit: typos)

Last edited by Thlayli (01-23-2015 02:20:50 AM)

I should have gone straight for Embleer Frith as a username.

I'm going to watch Duel #2 shortly, and ought to have a post up within 24 hours. -ish. And then I think I'll have some not-entirely-stupid questions for you good people.

Edit: You know, there's so much going on with the duels, and I need to watch the first one again, but that line about the castle being a trick of the light is nagging at me. For something to be a trick of the light basically means that what one sees is an illusion caused by the way light falls on it, right? That it's unreal? The SKU world looks slightly unreal anyway, but it gets really improbable once Utena reaches the staircase. I've belatedly noticed her outfit changes by the time she reaches the top (that is roughly my speed on the uptake ) so it's a transformation sequence too. Curiouser and curiouser. Edit: AND you enter an enchanted forest to reach it.

I did notice that you win a duel by de-flowering your opponent, but thought I was on entirely the wrong track. I'm not sure now. Swords are generally considered phallic though, and roses - flowers in general, I think - are often used as symbols of womanhood. The sword rips the rose to pieces. I don't know how to feel about that.

I don't know, I'm a little lost to be honest. Destroying your opponent's rose to win the rose bride, who is entirely at your mercy and will do whatever you say? There's that thing about the world revolution, so maybe she's power or potential. But, like, a living woman at the same time. When Saionji beats Anthy, it hurts, she suffers horribly. And she has no hope of escape from being that kind of totem/potential. She can disassociate from a duelist, but only to transfer to another, so the best she can hope for is that the duelist has no interest in abusing her.

The feminine flower being violently subjugated by the masculine sword? And there's Anthy's lack of choice over how she behaves. Restricted female autonomy? Destruction of self-expression?

Whee, this is gonna be a fun show. Do let me know if I'm talking rubbish.

Last edited by Thlayli (01-23-2015 05:45:36 AM)

Giovanna wrote:

Welcome to the show! I'm not going to post much here probably because I'm not capable to withholding spoilers at this point.

Thanks! Like I said upthread, it's an eighteen year old show - even without having seen it, by rights I ought to know a fair bit about it. I'm glad I don't!

Giovanna wrote:

It's funny, well no it's not... that you should say it hurts Anthy when Saionji hits her. I think one of the things I find alarming about his treatment of her is how unmoved she appears to be by it, therefore enraging him to further attempts to gain her attention, positive or negative. He's backhanding her hard enough to move her off her feet, and yet she doesn't whimper, cry, ask to stop, shrink from him when he approaches, or otherwise seem to give a crap except for that momentary holding her cheek.

I didn't notice that at all! My word. That's really quite sinister.

Giovanna wrote:

By the way, I also would watch my best friend's crushing psychological defeat from a distance with opera glasses.

I need to crank up my schadenfreude if I want to fit in around here. Or my sense of style, at the very least.

= = = = =

I also need to arm myself against my assumptions and organize my thoughts properly, rather than jumping back and forth in edits. So until they are shown to be utter hraka by the show, these will be my theories going into the next few episodes.

Presentation: I took the fairy tale at the beginning of Duel 1 to be a framing device, because of the abstract art and simple narration. What if it isn't and I ought to be looking at the episode proper as a fairy tale? Everyone knows the traditional ending to fairy tales, and it ain't here. The art improves, and the dialogue becomes more nuanced, but there are still fairy tale rules in play, even if they aren't played completely straight. That would make SKU a fairy tale in the real world, where magic doesn't work - except in the enchanted forest, where magic always works.

Archetypes: Utena says she wants to become a dashing prince. She doesn't seem to say that she is one yet, so perhaps until she rescues a princess she won't consider herself to be be a prince. That would seem to give Anthy or Wakaba the role of princess. I'm not sure how to reconcile either yet, but I'm thinking her quest is going to be to rescue Anthy from her life as the Rose Bride. However, it looks like she can't just say, "Go now, you are free," because... reasons. Reasons I don't understand. The dialogue from Duel 2 (i.e.: the future) is:

Utena:  If you don't know [why there's impossible castles], then why do you do that?
Anthy:  Why do you always dress like a boy, Miss Utena?
Utena:  What, this? Well... because I like to.
Anthy:  The same for me.

I think that Utena's answer, while not a lie, was not totally honest. Anthy picked up on that, and coached her answer in the same manner. So, Utena is going to have to keep fighting, just to stop Anthy from being... I almost typed 'being the Rose Bride', but what she's really doing is stopping her being anyone else's Rose Bride. And if Anthy is supposed to accept Utena's answer ("because I like to") at face value and accept it as the truth, then Utena will have to take Anthy's answer in the same spirit. So that isn't very Princely of Utena. Hmm.

Environment: I don't know how to relate Ohtori Academy proper and the Dueling Arena to one another, but I reckon the latter is even less real or literal than the former. What goes on there could be applicable to femininity being attacked, subjugated and harnessed to serve masculinity. Could instead be applicable to youth or innocence versus adulthood - although in all fairness the group mocking Wakaba's letter were all boys. It would have been easy for the director/artists to draw some girls, were it a non-gendered public shaming. Plus, Saionji.

I'm still so confused. I hope my bewilderment is amusing to all of you in the know. Hopefully it'll be possible to start tying things together as I get through the episodes. Haven't finished episode two write-up just yet, will put it up once I get home.

Last edited by Thlayli (01-23-2015 11:41:18 AM)

Atropos wrote:

Yes, I shall be watching this thread with great interest. /Gendo pose

Watched first two episodes.

1st episode: No one else is wearing that uniform, Utena. Your argument is void. I wouldn't mind watching a show where all boys had to wear short-shorts, but hey.

Also, why doesn't Himemiya pimp up Saionji's outfit with extra frills? So not fair. My problem with re-watching Utena is that it can be hard getting through the first arc all over again. It's not bad or anything, far from it, it's quite enjoyable, but I JUST WANT TO GET TO THE NEXT PART.

Last edited by YamPuff (01-23-2015 03:38:01 PM)

Hey guys can anyone link me to where I can peruse the duel song lyrics at my leisure to contemplate their loveliness?

satyreyes wrote:

YamPuff wrote:

Hey guys can anyone link me to where I can peruse the duel song lyrics at my leisure to contemplate their loveliness?

I found a fansite that is not Empty Movement (!) -- last updated in 2003 but still online -- whose song lyrics are much more easily browsable than ours. Check it out!

Edited to add: AMMONITE

Thank you kindly! I always have this plan that I'm going to watch the duel twice, once to focus on the subs and once to read the song lyrics but I always get distracted and do both simultaneously.

Episode 3-related material removed by moderatory fiat even though it was really funny

Last edited by satyreyes (01-23-2015 04:32:57 PM)