rhyaniwyn: I agree with everything you said about Touga

I think that he's attracted to Utena because she's insusceptible on his charm.
It's "a blur on his dignity"* -he can't get what he wants. Sajionji always was a winner, Touga always was an idol.
If Utena was submissive, he would treat her as others. Her unconcern is just like aphrodisiac.

SKU is juggling various fairytales, stereotypes, well-known stories and SKU mixes it into totally different way ("Once upon time..."/Prince on the white horse/Witch/and many more). Touga seems to be like playboy from american movie, who fell in love with normal girl, and they're happy together.
But Utena isn't a normal girl and Touga isn't typical Casanova after all. He's too selfish and vain to be with her.

I'm pretty much convinced that Touga has as much of a prince complex as Utena. It's just that it's easy to overlook. Little boys are encouraged to be princes after all. It also easy to belittle and corrupt because it's more the norm. Infact I'd say the worst thing to happen was done to ruin it for Touga, he was treated like a real prince. Rich parents giving him everything he could want, surrounded by servant and syncophants that followed his every wish later on adoring crowds because of his looks and wealth would add up to a sense of entitlement and ego that we see in the first arc. I think the only thing he retains is a bit of chivalry. I don't buy into the theory that Touga protected Anthy in the first episode out of fear of Ends of the World. He may not acknowlege her as anything other than the rose bride but he doesn't strike at her at all, unlike Saionji or Juri.
Then enter Utena presenting the more fairytale ideal of a prince and we have as much a clash of interpretations as Touga looking for a romantic challenge. Infact I think similar happens with the rest of the student council as well with their prestige and wealth being forced to face a more pure variation with Utena.

Raises the question of how Touga would have reacted to watching this happen to the others, knowing as he would this likely means he's going to catch it as well, and whether this reaction was part of, if not a good reason on its own, to keep Touga out of the picture. He especially would have hated the thought, and likely handled it the worst as it was, but to anticipate being violated in that manner? He wouldn't hear of it, and he'd do everything in his power to prevent it. (As it was...yikes. Not only is he kinda swordraped, but by someone farther removed from him than any of the other BRS duelists were to their swords. That someone he hardly knows is capable of doing this to him...)

I sincerely wish more had been done on this. His reaction to Keiko's violation would definitely want to be something to explore. After all, it is clear he does not like to be in a position of vulnerability, and it doesn't come much more vulnerable than that. This is really the one time where we see a girl dominating (at least physically) Touga and acting out her aggression at being ignored. I've always wondered what went on between Keiko's episode and Nanami's final duel. Did Keiko finally accept she'd never be anything but a part of the swarm and accept it? Or did Touga seek her out in order to manipulate Nanami? It's clear that he's using Keiko fully, but Keiko is also using him. Her attachment to Touga is as much a blow at Nanami as the satisfaction of her desires. She's finally stepping beyond her bounds and claiming what she wants.

On a different note, I have a much different interpretation of Touga than most. I believe that the boy in Nanami's memories was perhaps affectionate and caring, than Touga was an innocent. I think he had a natural inclination towards moral behavior that eventually became corrupted as he learned the mechanics of the world around him. Much like Utena wanting to become a prince, he fancied that image himself.

But his world in the Kiryuu family and the world of Ohtori taught him a lot. He came to realize, much as Dios eventually did, that the only thing that gets you what you really want is skill and a fair measure of cruelty. True intentions count for very little. So he made manipulation a practice, starting first with his sister then moving gradually from there. And then, using considerably less moral methods, he learned how to gain what he wanted and how to use it to his advantage.

What do I see in his actions with his female fans? Disgust. He has no respect for them because he can abuse them as much as they want, and they'll only love him even more. He goes out of his way to highlight this. But the more obvious his complete and utter lack of regard is, the more they flock. So he keeps himself emotionally detached, uses them as superficial pleasures, and casts them aside easily. I see him as having a very distinct Madonna/whore complex. The women around him are whores, and therefore to be used at his whim. Only Utena fulfills the requirements to become the Madonna.

Along comes Utena, with strong convictions. She goes out of her way to avenge her friend, despite the threat that the far more experienced Saionji.  Immediately, he wants to possess her. He's drawn to her image as a highly moral creature. Why? I'd say because he wants to destroy them, to prove she's not worthy of his admiration. Maybe she reminds him of the prince he once wanted to be. Maybe it's a threat to his perception of women overall as playtoys. Probably a combination of both.

To retaliate, he makes a mockery of the prince ideal by using it a facade for his own corrupt intentions. But this is not just used with Utena. He very much likes to fulfill all the hollow requirements of a prince by being "chivalrous," which could be more accurately described as chauvinistic. Not to mention he is immediately drawn to Akio, the embodiment of the fallen and corrupted prince. Utena reminds him of what he once wanted to be, Akio is representative of what he will become.

I base this mostly on his reaction to losing. During his second duel, I think he has an experience very similar to Juri's. He does not believe in miracles or princes. Clever observer he is, all he sees are the determined and the ruthless winning. Utena's victory completely shatters his entire set of perceptions of the world around him. I don't see it merely as a blow to his ego. It's a big slap in the face to his entire lifestyle. He has been lead to believe that morals and ideals get you nowhere. And then of the sudden, Utens changes all that. He even states later that this is the only event that made him reconsider the way that he lived his life.

It figures that one would come to the arena of sex eventually. It is my personal belief that Touga was sexually abused at some point in his life. The movie openly states this, but it is a lot harder deduction to make in the series. Much like Akio, he uses sex as a weapon and a tool. A weapon to dominate those around him, and a tool to garner him attention and affection. A product of sexual abuse might be inclined to both take vengeance out on the world for his vulnerability by dominating others sexually. Additionally, someone who has been introduced to sexuality cannot distinguish between sex and intimacy. This is made clear after Nanami's rejection: he has a time believing it was anything but desire fueling her adoration. Sex is the easiest way someone like Touga could fulfill his need for intimacy, but it also provides plenty of self-gratification and detachment. And lastly, it's a great way to advance himself politically. His willingness to hop into bed with Akio indicates two things: how far he is willing to go for power and how debased sex is in his view.

And I do believe that his perception of sex is very debased. Despite all appearances, he does favor some conservative leanings. Out of all the people he punishes for desiring him, Nanami comes foremost. Obviousy, he has no respect for his sister. He goes out of his way to antagonize her idealization of him, which he believes in firmly rooted in sexual desire (which is part of it, but probably not as much as he assumes it is). But in a sense, he is disgusted by her. I state this due to the fact he never takes advantage of her attraction until his car ride with Akio. Which was more of a show of his ruthless potential for Akio than a reflection of his lust for Nanami. This is further evidenced by his little tirade against lesbians. Notice how he also pays Juri very little respect as well, and is particularly intent on "feminizing" Utena. His homosexual interactions is necessary for him to gain power, and maybe an attempt to kill his somewhat misguided yet very strong inclination towards morality.

So. I have more to write on this, especially regarding Saionji, Utena, and Akio. But I feel this post will be epic enough. Maybe later.

Giovanna wrote:

I am necroing this thread because it's the best place to put this, I guess...don't recall it ever being mentioned so it's gotta go somewhere.

While writing Saionji's analysis essay concerning his BRS bit, I came upon the comment that Saionji recognized Mikage, the society, and the ring Wakaba wore. He seemed to have a familiarity with Mikage that the other student council members lacked, and all this from him that's been cut off to the events occuring so far. (He certainly didn't hear about it from Juri.)

If Saionji knew even a little more than Juri or Miki would have about the Black Rose, then it's safe to assume Touga knew far more. Convenient, isn't it then, that Touga (and Saionji) manage to be completely removed from the affairs of the school during this arc? Not sure whether to claim it part of Akio's scheme or part of the writers' scheme or me overanalyzing, but it's something to throw out there. Naturally I can't help but see this all being very convenient for Akio. Touga's quick, and would doubtless have been first in line to suspect Ends of the World's involvement in the Black Rose society (something the others don't immediately assume with quite the same weight as Touga would), but with Touga out of the picture, his direct line to the student council is cut off and they're left on their own with this problem. Their isolation this way would have been somewhat necessary to keep them from figuring out too much, and even without Touga's likely knowing more about this all already, he would have figured out what the others couldn't quite so easily. Would Touga have put a stop to it? Raised holy hell and made a gigantic mess to avoid being victimized himself?

Raises the question of how Touga would have reacted to watching this happen to the others, knowing as he would this likely means he's going to catch it as well, and whether this reaction was part of, if not a good reason on its own, to keep Touga out of the picture. He especially would have hated the thought, and likely handled it the worst as it was, but to anticipate being violated in that manner? He wouldn't hear of it, and he'd do everything in his power to prevent it. (As it was...yikes. Not only is he kinda swordraped, but by someone farther removed from him than any of the other BRS duelists were to their swords. That someone he hardly knows is capable of doing this to him...)

I watched these episodes again because this is a rather intriguing possibility. I guess I'm in the camp that kinda dismisses Saionji as having any true knowledge of what was going on with the Black Rose Society.

Most of the council had some passing knowledge of Mikage and his seminar/Black Rose Society, if evidenced by Miki's familiarity with it when Mikage was interviewing him and Nanami's similar conversation. Nanami also makes a comment after Saionji is reinstated to school that she heard the Black Rose society had something to do with it, so it can't be entirely clandestine.

I think Saionji recognizes the ring for being a rose signet and not for being a BLACK rose signet, myself, the same as Miki recognizing Kozue's after she shows it to him. Which is honestly rather clueless of Miki not to put together a black rose ring, and the Black Rose Society as the council is trying to determine who is working against them. We can excuse Juri and Nanami for not seeing the rings of their assailants, but not so much the "genius" who was shown Kozue's at hand's reach.

Similarly, I don't think Touga had any deeper knowledge of Mikage or his connection to Ends of the World. Since he is essentially Akio's right hand (in more ways than one ), it would seem imprudent of Akio to let Touga in on just how unimportant he is in the grand scheme of things. While Touga feels he is part of the process and will be rewarded as such, he is an asset to Akio, and I think the idea that Akio is savvy enough to know Touga wouldn't be a willing participant in something like the "swordrape." I agree with you that Touga would never let it happen to himself knowingly.

I think his absence is best explained by his voice actor being unavailable for the 2nd season of the show, but I could be wrong on that.

Thread necro time!

'Cause I'm reading through the archives, and there's a thought that's occurred to me, and what they heck, this thread was tending towards that particular direction before it dropped dead, so...

As I get a little older, I start looking at the SKU crowd and seeing them as, well, kids.  Their struggles and their potential for change are emblematic of a certain stage of development.  And suddenly, Touga's promiscuity comes into sharp relief.  He's way too young to be acting the way he does.  Teenage boys might imagine themselves as playboy Casanovas, but really, they aren't.

Flirting?  Yes.  Fumbling around in the backseat of a car?  Sure.  Being bored enough by having three girls in his bed that he'll answer the phone and keep them waiting?  Not so much.  Manipulating people with the promise of sex?  Okay.  Manipulating people with actual sex?  Again, that's not something a teenager should be doing.

His behavior is far enough outside of the developmental norm that I suspect there was a catalyst.  Sexual abuse at a young age?  I doubt it.  That sort of experience tends to leave someone with a sense of shame, and Touga is pretty much shameless.  If it weren't against the rules, I doubt he'd have any compunction about parading around the school naked.  Also, while Touga is sexually over-exposed, he isn't sexually inappropriate in the way that kids who have been sexually abused are: he keeps sex in the context that adults would keep it in rather than acting out sexually in contexts that make no sense.

It's possible that as a younger kid, he witnessed a manipulative use of sex, but I suspect that the behavior a kid would pick up from that would be the manipulation, rather than the sex, and would continue on with the backseat-fumbling trajectory of more normal sexual discovery.

I think the specifics of Touga's behavior point to the catalyst happening later on, at a time when he was aware of the facts of sex but not the practical application thereof, and naive enough to think that he could handle it and even get the upper hand.

Which leads me to a kind of terrifying question: was it Akio?

Welp, it sure seems like Touga models his behavior on Akio's in an exciting variety of other ways.  Why not this one?

With that said, it's hard to know how old to treat SKU's characters as being.  They're all too old for their ages.  You want to talk about Touga at seventeen being too young to manipulate people with sex -- how about Kozue at thirteen?  How did she get a handle on what you call the practical application of sex?  For that matter, is it believable that Utena at fourteen falls for -- and sleeps with -- a long-legged older man who looks to be well into his twenties?

I'm not sure.  Much of what goes on in SKU drives home how young these characters are.  And ironically, sometimes their youth is most obvious at the exact moments that they're trying to be the most "adult."  I think Touga falls squarely into that category.  I think he's just trying to grow up very quickly, and unfortunately he hangs out with Akio, who is perhaps not the best paragon of adulthood.  I hear what you're saying about Touga's behavior being developmentally inappropriate -- though really, is it any more appropriate when Akio does it? -- but I have no trouble believing that when Touga talks on the phone with three girls in his bed, he's got the delicious sense that he's getting away with something, that he's being a total fucking bamf, and he enjoys that as much as the sex.  He's certainly precocious.  (And Kozue is a prodigy.)  But I think he can be seventeen.  This is my opinion, based on my nonexistent knowledge of developmental psychology and my vague recollections of what I and other people in my high school were like at seventeen.

Kita-Ysabell wrote:

As I get a little older, I start looking at the SKU crowd and seeing them as, well, kids.  Their struggles and their potential for change are emblematic of a certain stage of development.

Yeah... gets me thinking about the Student Council meetings, where they all sound all grown up and serious, but in the background you often see silly things like floating balloons. I don't know if all those things are meant to be symbolic of something specific, but I have wondered if the contrast is intentional. After all, they are teens, which is that awkward stage between adult and child. And I don't think Touga and Kozue are as mature as they try to pass themselves of as either (especially not Kozue, but then she is just 13), even if they do kinda act like wanabe-Akios.