Syuria wrote:

I'm not sure how much it can been seen as of giving up your childhood and "dying" in that sense in Ohtori, as if my memory's corrent in one of the last scenes Wakaba's back as a girl showing a guy around Ohtori like she did with Utena. Then again, Wakaba seems to represent having a "normal" like at Ohtori away from all the duels, but... Gah, the movie manages to break my brain even more that the series, which is definately an achievement.

I believe you're recalling Wakaba's scene at the end of the series, wherein she's with Tatsuya and an unnamed girl glomps her. The movie doesn't go back to Ohtori once the carwash of doom shows up. Although, it is implied that Wakaba is taking the duellists back to Ohtori and that they will try to leave on their own at a later time. Nonetheless, we don't see Wakaba as a girl after we've seen her as a jeep.

Lightice wrote:

Um, the duck isn't bloody. That's water from the bath, if you look at the reflections. The red colour is due to the lighting, not the actual colour of the liquid.

This is true, it is water and not blood. However the lighting that tints the water red is symbolic of blood. There's no indication within the movie that turning into a car involves blood at all, at the least it's not the case with Utena.

Lightice wrote:

When seen with Kozue, Miki doesn't seem to have slightest inclination towards violent actions, nor does he afterwards act like a person who has just killed someone - not unless he's a bigger psychopath than anyone either in the movie or the series, movie-Shiori included. Nothing implicates him in such a dark role - instead he's one of belevolent friends who save Utena and Anthy in the last minute.

I doubt Miki would get violent with a razor blade put to his throat. Struggling at that point would go very badly, in most cases. Now I don't think that turning someone into a car is completely equivilent with murder, either. It's more like a kind of stasis in Kozue's case, as she is removed from the picture. But forcibly so.

There's also more than one way to be a psychopath. Shiori gets emotional, whereas Miki could simply be cold and detached.

In regards to being on the Wakaba-jeep: Saionji's there too and I don't see him as a benevolent character in the movie at all. He also promises to seduce Anthy in the outside world. Even Juri lacks any motivation due to kindness, so far as I can tell. Wakaba yes, but the other three are letting Anthy and Utena test run the track into the real world for them.

Lightice wrote:

Miki says that he wants power, but unlike Juri doesn't tell the purpose - the duck is there to imply that his reasons are the same as Juri's, to be free from the person that binds him.

If this is the case, where does Kozue go for the rest of the movie?

Lightice wrote:

And as for the car, unless my memory is completely messed up, we actually see Shiori-car rising next to Juri, just like we see Kozue-car next to Miki, despite of us seeing Shiori in the very next moment.

I believe we see a car rising up behind Juri, but not one with a visable license plate. My memory's not that clear, though, so I could be wrong.

The car that Utena turns into clearly contains Utena. The car with Shiori's name and voice presumably contains Shiori. Likewise Wakaba and Kozue. I don't think there's anything to indicate otherwise.

In regards to being on the Wakaba-jeep: Saionji's there too and I don't see him as a benevolent character in the movie at all. He also promises to seduce Anthy in the outside world. Even Juri lacks any motivation due to kindness, so far as I can tell. Wakaba yes, but the other three are letting Anthy and Utena test run the track into the real world for them.

There was clearly a strain in time, which is why the scene seems so wierd - there should have been some fleshing out in between the introductions and the ending scene. Saionji is clearl mellowed up from the previous encounter and is doing his version of wishing Utena and Anthy good luck on their journey - considering that he includes Utena to be seduced, as well, I doubt that he's too serious. Juri, too seems quite encouraging to them. While we have no idea what brought this change of minds in them (Utena's nobility? Wakaba beating some sense in them?), they've clearly become supporting to their cause. The main reason, if I'm allowed to guess is that Utena opened the eyes of all of them, giving them the goal to escape the Academy, following her example. As the Shadowgirls say, "friendship saved the day".

If this is the case, where does Kozue go for the rest of the movie?

Wherever unneeded characters go in a movie's time-limit. She never even sees Utena - she's not important enough to involve more than one cameo. You could just as well claim that Touga murdered (and ate! ) Nanami before his death because she only gets a cow-cameo.

The car that Utena turns into clearly contains Utena. The car with Shiori's name and voice presumably contains Shiori. Likewise Wakaba and Kozue. I don't think there's anything to indicate otherwise.

Active cars contain their personas, that much is proven. But there are plenty of cars in the tunnel. I've assumed they all have their counterparts in the school, the people who can't let go. Or else there's been lots of murdering in movie-Ohtori...

There's also more than one way to be a psychopath. Shiori gets emotional, whereas Miki could simply be cold and detached.

I still state that if Miki were such a dark character, we'd get a bit stronger reference to it. There is no way such complete turn could be made with the character from the series to the movie. They all have slightly different personalities, but are still recognisable. I could never recognise Miki a cold-blooded murderer.

I don't buy that Miki needs to be freed from Kozue; I honestly think that interpretation is taken more from series Miki than movie Miki. In the movie, Miki has already cut Kozue off ("We cannot go back to the garden"), He does so calmly and without any particular sense of regret, prompting her to call him a "traitor" for abandoning her.

I would call what happens after Miki's statement to symbolize the fact that he can't cut ties as easily as he'd wish. Kozue will always drag him back, even with a threat of violence. Miki believes that only with the Power to Revolutionize the World he can truly cut Kozue off without fear of backing up or even retaliation from her part.

Finally, Kozue has become a car. When we see them in the end of the movie, the cars have no names. They are all destroyed, and we last see them as rusting junkheaps. I don't think Kozue is coming back to Ohtori, any more than Shiori is.

True, but that's because of Kozue's choices, not Miki's.

In the movie, Miki is more of an amalgam; one part his TV series self, one part TV Touga. His treatment of Kozue, casually dropping whatever special bond they may have shared as children, mirrors TV Touga's treatment of his own sister. Not that that necessarily means anything deliberate, but I think it's an interesting comparison.

Here I also disagree. Miki doesn't just throw Kozue aside. He tries to reason with her, saying that she'll always be precious to him, although not in the manner she wishes. He's trying to have a compromise, which she doesn't allow - for Kozue it's everything or nothing.

I could accept Kozue choosing to become a car after this scene, due to her dissapointment and even despair (I agree with her dependence on Miki, btw), but not that Miki would have forced her to that role, with violence or otherwise.

Last edited by Lightice (01-04-2007 03:31:54 PM)

Lightice wrote:

There was clearly a strain in time, which is why the scene seems so wierd - there should have been some fleshing out in between the introductions and the ending scene. Saionji is clearl mellowed up from the previous encounter and is doing his version of wishing Utena and Anthy good luck on their journey - considering that he includes Utena to be seduced, as well, I doubt that he's too serious. Juri, too seems quite encouraging to them. While we have no idea what brought this change of minds in them (Utena's nobility? Wakaba beating some sense in them?), they've clearly become supporting to their cause. The main reason, if I'm allowed to guess is that Utena opened the eyes of all of them, giving them the goal to escape the Academy, following her example. As the Shadowgirls say, "friendship saved the day".

You're certainly allowed to guess, it's required for the movie. My own guess is similar, but slightly different motivation. Utena opens their eyes to the possibility of escaping to the outside world, but that doesn't necessarily endear her into their hearts at all. They want her to succeed and they'll help her do it, because it means they have a chance as well. The shadow girls have a tendency to be slightly off-point as well, I only see Wakaba as acting on friendship and even she only has the opening scenes to establish a relationship with Utena.

Lightice wrote:

Where does Kozue go for the rest of the movie?

Wherever unneeded characters go in a movie's time-limit. She never even sees Utena - she's not important enough to involve more than one cameo. You could just as well claim that Touga murdered (and ate! ) Nanami before his death because she only gets a cow-cameo.

If we saw Touga with a knife, fork and stained napkin, I'd totally believe it. We see a car with Kozue's name and we later have three examples of characters turning into cars. There's more indication that this is Kozue's fate than that it isn't. All the named characters are given some sort of resolution. (With the exception of Kanae, who's used to it.)

Lightice wrote:

Active cars contain their personas, that much is proven. But there are plenty of cars in the tunnel. I've assumed they all have their counterparts in the school, the people who can't let go. Or else there's been lots of murdering in movie-Ohtori...

Well again, I don't view it as death in the traditional sense, the cars themselves are certainly active. Nor do I think that every car in the chase scene was forced into that position.

Lightice wrote:

I still state that if Miki were such a dark character, we'd get a bit stronger reference to it. There is no way such complete turn could be made with the character from the series to the movie. They all have slightly different personalities, but are still recognisable. I could never recognise Miki a cold-blooded murderer.

The problem with that is, the series characters aren't turning into the movie characters. The movie is reinventing the characters, then giving them the same name and general appearance. There's no way that series Akio could ever wind up like his movie counterpart. Nor would series Touga likely kill himself to save a drowning girl. Suffice to say this isn't the Miki you are looking for.

Lightice wrote:

I would call what happens after Miki's statement to symbolize the fact that he can't cut ties as easily as he'd wish. Kozue will always drag him back, even with a threat of violence. Miki believes that only with the Power to Revolutionize the World he can truly cut Kozue off without fear of backing up or even retaliation from her part.

It's been a while since I last watched the movie, but does the Power to Revolutionize the World even come up before Anthy and Utena say it at the climax? Miki is interested in gaining power, presumably through the dueling game, but there's no indication he'd need it to deal with his family life. Juri, in turn, does not duel Utena to get away from Shiori. Rather, Shiori manipulates Juri into dueling.

Lightice wrote:

Miki doesn't just throw Kozue aside. He tries to reason with her, saying that she'll always be precious to him, although not in the manner she wishes. He's trying to have a compromise, which she doesn't allow - for Kozue it's everything or nothing.

Exactly, that's what prompts Miki to act against Kozue to get her out of the way, as she's become a threat to him.

A Day Without Me wrote:

Miki tries to detach himself from her somewhat, but even the mere statement provokes a violent outburst from Kozue. Also, Wakaba comments that Kozue doesn't let Miki date anyone earlier on in the movie - does this sound like a guy free from his sister's control? Hardly. And I again cite Miki's facial expression as Kozue holds the razor to his throat - he is afraid because he doesn't doubt she might actually drag the razor across his throat.

I'd say Miki disallowing Kozue to date shows that the control's working the other way around. Granted he's doing something due to how he feels about Kozue, but it's not in response to being controlled. He is the domineering factor of the relationship, and he abuses that position to keep his sister from doing anything he'd disapprove of. Exactly the things we see Kozue's series counterpart do all the time.

Kozue's threat on Miki's life is what changes the relationship Wakaba describes into an actual power struggle. Kozue wants more than Miki's willing to give and, after he extricates himself from her threat of physical violence, he takes the steps necessary to see that it doesn't happen again.

Ragnarok wrote:

A Day Without Me wrote:

Miki tries to detach himself from her somewhat, but even the mere statement provokes a violent outburst from Kozue. Also, Wakaba comments that Kozue doesn't let Miki date anyone earlier on in the movie - does this sound like a guy free from his sister's control? Hardly. And I again cite Miki's facial expression as Kozue holds the razor to his throat - he is afraid because he doesn't doubt she might actually drag the razor across his throat.

I'd say Miki disallowing Kozue to date shows that the control's working the other way around. Granted he's doing something due to how he feels about Kozue, but it's not in response to being controlled. He is the domineering factor of the relationship, and he abuses that position to keep his sister from doing anything he'd disapprove of.

Except, I said Kozue didn't allow Miki to date, not the other way around.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it is. I don't actually have a copy of the movie, so I can't really check that.

According to the Software Sculptors translation:

Wakaba wrote:

He's cute and popular...

<Utena staring at Touga>

... but his twin sister interferes... and he can't find a girlfriend because of it, they say.

So it's not control so much as it is getting in the way. Either way, I remembered it wrong...

[edit] - Further, Wakaba does show up at the end, walking ahead of Tatsuya. So I guess she can un-transform.

Alright, so much for understanding the movie!

Last edited by Ragnarok (01-04-2007 07:22:13 PM)

Hm? Well if you ge the movie sometime in thefuture (like I did), after watching it on YouTube (in fact You tube was the reason I was able to finish the series) now all I have is the Black Rose Saga to have and my collection is complete, so I say You Tube is not negative.

Legal or not, it's there. I'm not going to endorse using illegal means to see the movie, the series, or anything else, but I will say I can't blame anyone for doing so. In any case, this isn't the place for a discussion of it-- that would belong in the General forum.

The explanation of Miki having thrown off Kozue (by whatever means) makes a lot of sense to me. Actually, it's helped me to make sense of Miki's role in the movie, something I never understood before. Kozue does seem like she's sort of... at Miki's mercy, and to me, that really emphasizes something I'd thought but never put into words about the series-- that Miki is the one with the potential to control their relationship. It's a good rule of thumb that the more emotional you are about something, the less likely you are to be able to control it. Miki doesn't realize this because during the span of the series he's just as emotional as Kozue, but if they had continued being at odds, I suspect he would have gained the upper hand the way he has in the movie.

That brings to mind another thought, actually. In other threads, people have said that the relationships of the duellists were a reflection of Utena and Anthy's relationship. Does this hold true for Miki and Kozue in the movie, or do they serve some other purpose?

Not that I trust my memory in relation to the movie anymore, but (if I recall correctly) Ikuhara intentionally doesn't explain why Kozue has become a car. Much as he will not explain why Utena becomes a car. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's for the same reason.

Incidentally, why doesn't Miki drive Kozue later on? Instead of being a passenger on the Wakaba jeep, he could have been riding in style.

Ragnarok wrote:

Not that I trust my memory in relation to the movie anymore, but (if I recall correctly) Ikuhara intentionally doesn't explain why Kozue has become a car. Much as he will not explain why Utena becomes a car. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's for the same reason.

Incidentally, why doesn't Miki drive Kozue later on? Instead of being a passenger on the Wakaba jeep, he could have been riding in style.

Well, Kozue's bound for the adult world, and Miki isn't ready for that yet, so he stays on the Wakaba jeep, because I think the impression we're supposed to get for Wakaba is that she isn't ready for the adult world yet, either.

As for Utena, Kozue, and Shiori turning into cars... uh, it's unfortunately quite possible Ikuhara just did it for shits and giggles He really seems to love messing with the fans' minds.

EDIT: Well, I must ask Blade, how did you infer that Juri is in love with Touga? Shiori's still in her locket, after all, and it seemed pretty clear to me that Shiori's the one she's hopelessly in love with in both the garage scene and the dueling scene.

Last edited by A Day Without Me (01-04-2007 08:53:07 PM)

Ragnarok wrote:

You're certainly allowed to guess, it's required for the movie. My own guess is similar, but slightly different motivation. Utena opens their eyes to the possibility of escaping to the outside world, but that doesn't necessarily endear her into their hearts at all. They want her to succeed and they'll help her do it, because it means they have a chance as well. The shadow girls have a tendency to be slightly off-point as well, I only see Wakaba as acting on friendship and even she only has the opening scenes to establish a relationship with Utena.

I have simply this thing to say here: it doesn't fit in the movie's theme. This group of people aren't shamelessly using Utena and Anthy as guinea pigs for their own future ascension - they're helping them because they've come to understand the nature of Ohtori and admire Utena for showing them the light.

If we saw Touga with a knife, fork and stained napkin, I'd totally believe it. We see a car with Kozue's name and we later have three examples of characters turning into cars. There's more indication that this is Kozue's fate than that it isn't.

Did Utena die? Or Shiori (before the car-accident, that is)? There is no indication, whatsoever that car=death. Car is either an attempt to escape to the Outside World or to hinder the ascension of others. In either way, death isn't involved in becoming a car.

Nor do I think that every car in the chase scene was forced into that position.

So exactly why would Kozue be?

The problem with that is, the series characters aren't turning into the movie characters. The movie is reinventing the characters, then giving them the same name and general appearance. There's no way that series Akio could ever wind up like his movie counterpart. Nor would series Touga likely kill himself to save a drowning girl. Suffice to say this isn't the Miki you are looking for.

Nevertheless all these characters have characteristics we know from previous encounters: Utena still wants to be a prince, Anthy is still bound as the Rose Bride, Saionji is a loud jerk, Juri is a strong and capable girl, apart from her fixation with Shiori, Shiori is a person who abuses this fixation (though to much stronger degree than in the series), Touga still acts a chivalrious knight in a shining armour (although this time he's doing it for real) and Miki is still a somewhat shy guy with problems with his twin sister.
Differences exist, but not big, overwhelming differences. Even movie-Akio has some things in common with his series counterpart, although due to losing his attitude completely they're less clear.

It's been a while since I last watched the movie, but does the Power to Revolutionize the World even come up before Anthy and Utena say it at the climax?

There are references to "power" and "Revolution" in the discussion between Juri and Miki. The indication is that they duel for the Power to Revolutionize the World, much like their series counterparts.

Miki is interested in gaining power, presumably through the dueling game, but there's no indication he'd need it to deal with his family life.

I see the rubber duck exactly as that indication - a nudge towards Kozue, but in no way a reference to her demise.

Juri, in turn, does not duel Utena to get away from Shiori. Rather, Shiori manipulates Juri into dueling.

Before Shiori comes along, Juri says that she wants to be free from the things that bind her and when Shiori arrives, it becomes clear that she is the most important of those things.

He is the domineering factor of the relationship, and he abuses that position to keep his sister from doing anything he'd disapprove of.

How, exactly? He doesn't make any "domineering" remarks in the very short conversation we see between him and Kozue. He's asking, I repeat asking Kozue to be reasonable in her expectations for him, which she doesn't comply.

his sister's car-coffin rises behind him...

What makes you think of car as a coffin? Isn't it's symbol the exact opposite, in the movie? As I pointed out before, Utena and Shiori definately aren't dead when they become cars.
In any case, the car rising behind him is a quite clear indication for his motives of wanting power. It rises just as he speaks his desire. To me that points to exactly what is behind that desire.

Can you ever see series-Miki talking about how all he's ever really wanted is power?

Not "all", "always". There is a difference. He's always wanted power to be the stronger party in his sibling-relationship. He isn't there, yet.

Especially looking like this while he does it?

He's making a cool act go with a cool statement, but he's not so cool on the inside. Juri, I think, recognises this and turns the conversation to less serious direction.

Kozue doesn't get to make choices that matter, because she's not a Duellist.

So Shiori doesn't get a choice, either, for the same reason? I've always seen Kozue as doing what Shiori does, only in smaller degree.

Again, the otherwise-inexplicable eyebrow grooming makes sense as a symbolic representation of that.

I would call that the symbol of the closeness of their relationship. And a way for her to keep a sharp object near Miki's face, a symbol completely opposite from what you suggest. I don't deny her dependence on Miki, but I'm saying that Miki has very little to say about it.

Again, the subsequent scene. She's gone. We see this, as clearly as if they'd shown us a body.

Eh, not seeing a character where she isn't supposed to be, in any case tells nothing about what's happened to her. It certainly is lightyears away from showing a body.

And, of course, to once again make the comparison, in the series it's Touga who's the one who craves power about all else, and says so on numerous occasions.

Even if the comparsion is viable, which I doubt, would the series Touga murder Nanami in cold blood to get his hands on the power of Dios? That I seriously doubt.

Incidentally, why doesn't Miki drive Kozue later on? Instead of being a passenger on the Wakaba jeep, he could have been riding in style.

A good question - I'd say it's because Miki doesn't have anything to do, at least directly with Kozue turning into a car and doesn't perhaps even know it has happened.

Last edited by Lightice (01-05-2007 03:00:18 AM)

Blade wrote:

But Shiori is dead afterwards. And so is Kozue. I'll also note that we see quite clearly from Utena that the body is inside the car. Kozue's body is inside that car.

Utena's body, her living body is inside her car, but a rule can't be derived from a single example. Who are the other cars, in that case? Remember that the tunnel is filled with cars. But even if Kozue's body is there, it's no indication that Miki'd had anything to do with putting it in there.

And to me, that points to exactly what he did to prove his desire. Shiori doesn't show up when Juri talks about freedom from what binds her. The fact he turned his sister into a mindless machine - which has already happened - is a pretty clear indicator of his wanting power, yes.

Except that there is nothing, absolutely nothing to imply that Miki did anything of the sort. You don't even have circumstancial evidence for this. No kind of reference, whatsoever. You only have a feeling, based on an interpretation of the purpose of the position of a rubber duck, which can be understood in several ways and proven in none.

Do you, ever, under any circumstances, see the Miki of the TV series saying that line with an arrogant smirk?

Unlikely. But he isn't series Miki, which I know and acknowledge. However, as I pointed out, none of the movie's characters is completely unrecognisable in relation to their series counterparts. They all have characteristics that make obvious who they are, even if we were only described their actions and words without showing their character-designs - even movie-Akio and even Miki. The character you are suggesting him to be is no Miki, at all but a completely new creation without any kind of relation to the character we know.

Nope, Shiori does not.

She has plenty of choices, though due to her single-minded bent she doesn't use them, much. Perhaps that can be described of being without a choice, but it certainly doesn't mean being without power. She's the one whose is closest to being in control, like Akio was in the series, the one who knows more than anyone else, but still not enough.

She turns into a car to escape the world... and is promptly killed for trying.

No, she turns into a car (which is, in itself a choice, I might mention - no-one forced her in that role) in order to prevent anyone else from escaping the world. That is her choice, though not a very good one.

Then why is her body in a mindless machine while Miki smirks and talks about how he's always wanted power?

Mindless? Was Shiori a "mindless machine"? No, only very, very single- and narrow-minded - much like Kozue. Neither of them can see many options for their own existance. Only a single one. I believe all the cars are incredibly determined, like Shiori to take their actions each for their own reasons. They are, I believe, the movie's version of the Black Rose Duellists, though they don't need anyone to bring out their raging ids - they are doing it to themselves. At least we never see anyone else doing it to them.

Eh, not seeing a character where she isn't supposed to be, in any case tells nothing about what's happened to her. It certainly is lightyears away from showing a body.

Ironically, no, it in fact is exactly like seeing a body.

Sorry, but your logic is completely impervious to me, at this point. How not seeing Kozue in a place, where she isn't supposed to be in any case and where she wouldn't fulfill any kind of story-function can in any way be seen as a truth of her murder? Seriously, I think that you are making an incredibly big deal about a single cameo - something that'd completely change the movie's nature and destroy its conclusion.
"Miki is a cold-blooded, murdering psychopath but...never mind, it doesn't matter, forget about it."
Does this sound like good storytelling to you, even in the surreal, symbolical setting of the movie-Ohtori? Indeed, especially in the setting such as this? It makes absolutely no sense in relation to rest of the movie.

Even if the comparsion is viable, which I doubt, would the series Touga murder Nanami in cold blood to get his hands on the power of Dios? That I seriously doubt.

I don't. He'd completely ruin Saionji's life to win points with Utena, he'd rape Nanami to get her to duel, but you think he'd balk at murder? I see no real reason to think so. Do you think he wouldn't kill a random person to get the Power of Dios?

I would beg differ. You are making him worse than he is. He is a shameless playboy and a selfish bastard, but completely lacks physical cruelty, at least as far as the series demonstrates and is, ultimately still an adolescent boy playing games, even though his setting is much wider than most. He wouldn't rape Nanami, as you suggest - I strongly doubt he could actually rape anybody. Even if he were a cruel enough bastard for such an act, it'd conflict with his sense of aesthetics. He makes a move on Nanami, thats motives are open for interpretation, but whatever they were, he immediately stops when he's pushed away. To me it seems that he was playing with Nanami's confusion, making her understand that she, herself doesn't know what she wants, giving a weak spot for Akio to manipulate her into duelling again. He did a cruel thing to Saionji, but he could have done worse - Saionji could have spent his high-school years in prison.
And no, I don't think he could kill even for the Power of Dios, in his right mind. That's not his style. He'd find another, smoother way, if for nothing else, because such crass act is below him. Remember that in Utena, both movie and series death and killing are extremely serious matters. Not even Akio would kill with light heart, although his reasons aren't bound with empathy.

If he didn't, it'd be a shocking departure from everything we've ever seen about Touga's character. Therefore, the question becomes: does Nanami mean more to Touga than any random person? I'd have to say we're given ample evidence to say "Nope, she does not".

Sorry, but you can stop saying "we", here. I have a very different view of the series-Touga, as well as movie-Miki. I do say that series-Touga still cares about Nanami, although he cares about the power he's trying to gain more. And he would even kill some random person for his goals - he is emotionally and morally a lazy person. That is, he isn't one to put himself in situation that could cause emotional or moral stress, if he can avoid it. And although with his loose morals that is relatively easy, especially as he is skilled at putting the blame on the victim in his mind, there are actions where it just doesn't work.

Sorry, but in your mind Utena is far more filled with cruel psychopaths, than in mine. I only see one psychopathic mentality in Utena and that is series-Akio and even he isn't completely free of emotional attachments. Touga and his Student Council collegues are a far cry from that set of mind.