In the Rose Garden / We Hate SKU!

Yams · Back to Top

Just kidding. emot-wink

I figured I'd stop lurking about reading other's cool posts and do something myself. This is a thread to list anything and everything you don't like about SKU, manga, anime, movie or whatever (BESIDES movie Akio. We already know. emot-tongue ) Characters, scenes, themes, anything.

What I don't like:
*The animation, notably the duel scenes. They're laughable, frankly, with everyone haphazardly slashing their swords around at each other. I wish, wish, wish we could combine all the greatness of SKU with a bigger budget.

*The insinuation that girls have to act/dress like boys to be special/nobleuy;ewq. It could just be me, but I got a "being like a boy = good, being like a girl = bad" vibe from the series, especially around the last bunch of episodes. You can wear a dress and still be all noble and strong dammit. emot-mad

*The fact that Miki didn't get enough screentime!!

Maarika · Back to Top

YamPuff wrote:
*The insinuation that girls have to act/dress like boys to be special/nobleuy;ewq. It could just be me, but I got a "being like a boy = good, being like a girl = bad" vibe from the series, especially around the last bunch of episodes. You can wear a dress and still be all noble and strong dammit.

Hehe, I got a whole different impression on that. emot-biggrin
SKU seems quite feministic to me. The crossdressing thing, for example, is full of irony. They take the concept, dress Utena like a boy and in the end throw it all away in the end to show that even that isn't right. The way Utena dresses is symbolic, I agree that people can be strong and noble even if they wear a dress, but when you make things more symbolic then Utena wouldn't have left the same impression on others if she had been wearing her regular school uniform (or even a dress). ;D

Anyway, I dislike movie Akio. emot-tongue Then again, he's amusing.
And I don't especially like what they did to movie Anthy. Other then that, I have to think about what else I don't like.

brian · Back to Top

Movie Akio is a lot less fun. He is a subset of the anime Akio and he throws anime Akio into a different llight which is both harsher and gentler. At some point in the past anime Akio probably did drug Anthy, that may have been one of the downward steps to how they became the way they were. Perhaps they both jumped off the ledge at times. He also is something of the sensitive, romantic, rakish artist. He looks in the movie more like something that Anthy could genuinely love. He seems to be an earlier version who had not yet totally given up on being a Prince, or at least is making a brave pretence for his sister.

In the anime he's a dashing, manipulative, outrageous, smart, sexy devil. In the movie he's a miasma in Anthy's mind. A lot less fun indeed but there is much to be learned from that.

Last edited by brian (03-14-2007 12:41:05 PM)

SleepDebtFairy · Back to Top

YamPuff wrote:
Just kidding.

I figured I'd stop lurking about reading other's cool posts and do something myself. This is a thread to list anything and everything you don't like about SKU, manga, anime, movie or whatever (BESIDES movie Akio. We already know. ) Characters, scenes, themes, anything.

What I don't like:
*The animation, notably the duel scenes. They're laughable, frankly, with everyone haphazardly slashing their swords around at each other. I wish, wish, wish we could combine all the greatness of SKU with a bigger budget.

*The insinuation that girls have to act/dress like boys to be special/nobleuy;ewq. It could just be me, but I got a "being like a boy = good, being like a girl = bad" vibe from the series, especially around the last bunch of episodes. You can wear a dress and still be all noble and strong dammit.

*The fact that Miki didn't get enough screentime!!

I actually adore the animation style. etc-love It's old, but it still looks good to me. Maybe because of all of the visuals it uses. Although, the movie animation is much shinier.

I actually thought that with the end of the series, with Anthy leaving in a dress, it was showing that you didn't have to dress like a boy to be noble. emot-keke Anthy was leaving Ohtori behind to go find Utena, which I thought was pretty noble, and she was wearing a pink dress.

As for things I dislike... Hmmm. Wow, that's hard. emot-gonk

I guess I wish we learned a little bit more about Anthy's thoughts, or that she started showing a little more emotion more early on. But! That would make it no fun, huh? So maybe not.

I wish Ruka didn't die. emot-frown But then again, death would be just symbolic in SKU for leaving Ohtori, huh?

You know, I'll have to get back on this subject. emot-confused Most of the things I disliked were things that were pretty necessary at the same time.

Hina the Prince · Back to Top

Maarika wrote:
YamPuff wrote:
*The insinuation that girls have to act/dress like boys to be special/nobleuy;ewq. It could just be me, but I got a "being like a boy = good, being like a girl = bad" vibe from the series, especially around the last bunch of episodes. You can wear a dress and still be all noble and strong dammit.
Hehe, I got a whole different impression on that.
SKU seems quite feministic to me. The crossdressing thing, for example, is full of irony. They take the concept, dress Utena like a boy and in the end throw it all away in the end to show that even that isn't right. The way Utena dresses is symbolic, I agree that people can be strong and noble even if they wear a dress, but when you make things more symbolic then Utena wouldn't have left the same impression on others if she had been wearing her regular school uniform (or even a dress). ;D

So true!

What I don't like:

The manga.

And, errr... in the anime... uh... maybe there's too much incest [excluding Anthy and Akio, of course]. I mean, okay, without brother complexes half of the cast would be utterly different and that would be uncool, but couldn't there be at least one normal sibling relationship to even it out?

Another thing is Shiori. I don't dislike her character, but I wish they'd show a more human side to her. You really have to dig through layers of symbolism and whatnot in order to find sides to her personality other than "that pathetic bitch", and when a character acts like that, there aren't too many people who are willing to do it. But I'm thankful that there are, since they made me appreciate her character a lot more [I'm looking at you, Razara etc-love ].

dollface · Back to Top

It's hard to say what you don't like about a series you've been in love with for years.

-The Black Rose duels were far too short. FAR TOO SHORT.
-Fillers. While yes, they're funny, I feel like no one takes Nanami's character seriously because of all her filler episodes. I love Nanami, and I thought she was very deep, but then all anyone could ever talk about was her egg, or the elephants, ect.
-At times, the animation is lacking. For the most part, I find it beautiful. But sometimes... this happened:
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/seitokaidvd/Screen112.jpg
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/unveiling/ … ap0196.jpg
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/revelation … ap0430.jpg WTF?? emot-gonk
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/revelation … ap0547.jpg

Now, one thing I had more relevant problems with was the manga.
-Juri. He character in the manga, in short, was awful. How anyone really picks manga Juri over anime Juri is beyond me.
-No Shiori. This means no favorite character for me, no lifeline for Razara, and no interesting character for Juri! emot-mad
-Akio. Where's the sexy manipulation? I mean sure, there's some, but not nearly enough. No good sex scenes either.
-No homos! WHERE'S MY PERVERTED HOMOEROTICA??? The 'friends' aspect isn't even debatable for manga Utena/Anthy, Shiori isn't existant for Juri, and no Akio/Touga/Saionji threesomes.
-Saionji. He has...no character at all really. Nothing. No backstory as to why he fights, why he wants Anthy, why he doesn't like Utena, why he wants eternity...Nothing.
-No Nanami either. She was in a photo once, with Touga, but...other than that? Never appeared. Which is funny, seeing as she's one of the main characters in the anime.
-Kozue's character SUCKED. I want my brother-loving skank back! emot-mad
-And lastly, hardly any of the symbolism we've grown to know and love.

I know the manga was made before the anime, so it wasn't like they knew to put all those things in there but...still!

Edit:

Hina the Prince wrote:
But I'm thankful that there are, since they made me appreciate her character a lot more [I'm looking at you, Razara ].

Well fine then! emot-mad Guess I'm still not good enough!

Kidding emot-biggrin

Last edited by dollface (03-14-2007 01:19:19 PM)

Epi_lepsia · Back to Top

I just don't like their super long legs.

Hina the Prince · Back to Top

dollface wrote:
-At times, the animation is lacking. For the most part, I find it beautiful. But sometimes... this happened:
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/seitokaidvd/Screen112.jpg
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/unveiling/ … ap0196.jpg
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/revelation … ap0430.jpg WTF??
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/revelation … ap0547.jpg

Agreed, even though I don't think the first two are too bad. The last two, on the other hand... emot-gonk They look like bad fan art that got animated. The horse episode [was it Azure Brighter than the Sky? I never bothered to remember its name] was horribly drawn too, if I recall correctly.

-No homos! WHERE'S MY PERVERTED HOMOEROTICA???

Chiho Saito does not believe in gay people. Hey, I bet Utena was based on her!

The 'friends' aspect isn't even debatable for manga Utena/Anthy

Well, they did kiss, and Anthy did choose Utena over Akio, so I think it can be interpreted that way if you have the right yuri-goggles on. I find it hysterical that the summary in the beginning of each volume says "Utena wants to help her friend, Anthy..." and right above it they put a picture of them kissing.

Well fine then! Guess I'm still not good enough!

Kidding

I'M SORRY D: You too!!1

brian · Back to Top

dollface wrote:
How anyone really picks manga Juri over anime Juri is beyond me.

AFAIK no one has.

Akio, Touga, and to a lesser extent Utena, are at their most complex in the manga, most other characters in the anime. Anthy is roughly equally complex everywhere but the movie.

BTW complexity is not quite the same thing as believability, IMHO, Kozue and Saoinji are more believable in the manga but more complex in the anime.

Last edited by brian (03-14-2007 01:39:23 PM)

SleepDebtFairy · Back to Top

dollface wrote:
It's hard to say what you don't like about a series you've been in love with for years.

-The Black Rose duels were far too short. FAR TOO SHORT.
-Fillers. While yes, they're funny, I feel like no one takes Nanami's character seriously because of all her filler episodes. I love Nanami, and I thought she was very deep, but then all anyone could ever talk about was her egg, or the elephants, ect.
-At times, the animation is lacking. For the most part, I find it beautiful. But sometimes... this happened:
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/seitokaidvd/Screen112.jpg
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/unveiling/ … ap0196.jpg
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/revelation … ap0430.jpg WTF??
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/revelation … ap0547.jpg

That's true. While I love the SKU animation, there are still a few moments that make me go " emot-gonk ". Mostly in the beginning episodes.

And yeah, I think the idea of Juri's obsession with Shiori is more interesting than her being obsessed with Touga. Mostly because a ton of other people are obsessed with Touga. emot-confused Despite Shiori not being one of my favourites, she was still an interesting addition to the story.

Hmm. It definitely is a challenge to think of stuff I don't like in the series. emot-gonk

Clarice · Back to Top

Epi_lepsia wrote:
I just don't like their super long legs.

Agreed -- although it's more along the lines of although I know it's a stylistic thing, come ON, Nanami is THIRTEEN YEARS OLD?! Bullshit. I'm twenty-five and still look younger than her, goddammit. emot-gonk

dollface wrote:
-The Black Rose duels were far too short. FAR TOO SHORT.
-Fillers. While yes, they're funny, I feel like no one takes Nanami's character seriously because of all her filler episodes. I love Nanami, and I thought she was very deep, but then all anyone could ever talk about was her egg, or the elephants, ect.
-At times, the animation is lacking.

Agreed on the BRS. Although I loved every crazy second of it, and over-explaining it would have taken the fun out of my hours upon hours of obsessing over Mikage, I would have liked to know more about it canonically. Dammit.

Fillers? Hilarious in some ways, irritating as hell in others. The latter fillers I tended to like more, although I really could have done without the curry. And Tsuwabuki's journal. Although I still give the show massive kudos for the cows, the eggs and the fly-by-virginity-loss-at-the-fair episodes! Always knew those damn carnies were dodgy folk! school-devil

And yes, the animation. [sigh] When I have lots and lots of money I am buying an animation studio, ripping the audio, and having them reanimate the entire series. For real. (Because I really have nothing better to spend my money on. Huh.)

The only other thing that bugged me a lot is the duel accension scenes. While the last is a total wonderful mindfuck and Zettai is a pretty neat song, the fast-forward button on my remote is not for decoration, oh no. And I thought I'd got away from it by stopping watching Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon with its endless henshin sequences ARRRRRGH...

Last edited by Clarice (03-14-2007 01:56:15 PM)

Hina the Prince · Back to Top

Clarice wrote:
Tsuwabuki's journal and the fly-by-virginity-loss-at-the-fair episodes

Are recaps, not fillers.

The only other thing that bugged me a lot is the duel accension scenes. While the last is a total wonderful mindfuck and Zettai is a pretty neat song, the fast-forward button on my remote is not for decoration, oh no. And I thought I'd got away from it by stopping watching Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon with its endless henshin sequences ARRRRRGH...

But... but... elevator porn!!! ;_;

Giovanna · Back to Top

dollface wrote:
-At times, the animation is lacking.

I think you skipped one. emot-gonk
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/revelation … ap0353.jpg

IT'S A FUCKING LOBSTER CLAW

ON STEROIDS

AUGH

dollface · Back to Top

Hina the Prince wrote:
Agreed, even though I don't think the first two are too bad. The last two, on the other hand... They look like bad fan art that got animated. The horse episode [was it Azure Brighter than the Sky? I never bothered to remember its name] was horribly drawn too, if I recall correctly.

Really? I think they're all equally terrible. CURRIED HIGH TRIP WAS THE ABSOLUTE WORST EPISODE OF THE SERIES, animation-wise. Oh really? I didn't think Azure Brighter Than The Sky was bad at all. You're thinking of The Love That Blossomed In Winter. That's the episode with Touga and the horse and all that jazz.

Well, they did kiss, and Anthy did choose Utena over Akio, so I think it can be interpreted that way if you have the right yuri-goggles on. I find it hysterical that the summary in the beginning of each volume says "Utena wants to help her friend, Anthy..." and right above it they put a picture of them kissing.

Yeah, the only real scene would be the kiss. But you have to be really wanting it to be shoujo-ai to take it that way.

I'M SORRY D: You too!!1

Hah, nah, don't worry. I don't write amazing analysises like Razara does. I don't write essays, I really don't do much of anything. If I'd helped change someones viewpoints on dust, I'd be in shock.

dollface · Back to Top

Giovanna wrote:
dollface wrote:
-At times, the animation is lacking.
I think you skipped one.
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/revelation … ap0353.jpg

IT'S A FUCKING LOBSTER CLAW

ON STEROIDS

AUGH

AND HOW DO YOU EXPECT ME TO EAT DINNER NOW???
emot-gonk emot-mad

Hina the Prince · Back to Top

dollface wrote:
Really? I think they're all equally terrible. CURRIED HIGH TRIP WAS THE ABSOLUTE WORST EPISODE OF THE SERIES, animation-wise.

I was just watching some of Curried High Trip. The sheer genius of this episode took my mind off the animation quality.

Oh really? I didn't think Azure Brighter Than The Sky was bad at all. You're thinking of The Love That Blossomed In Winter. That's the episode with Touga and the horse and all that jazz.

Right, yeah, that's what it's called! It was around that episode that the series looked its worst. But of course, all is forgiven because the budget they didn't use for those episodes went to the last two. etc-love But still, some are just horrid, like:

http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/revelation … ap0273.jpg WHERE IS THE OUTLINE
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/revelation … ap0288.jpg "I have no face! 8D"
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/revelation … ap0463.jpg THE HORROR.
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/revelation … ap0552.jpg And its companion.

Adn the stereroid lobster Saionji is from there, too. emot-gonk

Last edited by Hina the Prince (03-14-2007 02:45:32 PM)

Lightice · Back to Top

YamPuff wrote:
*The insinuation that girls have to act/dress like boys to be special/nobleuy;ewq. It could just be me, but I got a "being like a boy = good, being like a girl = bad" vibe from the series, especially around the last bunch of episodes. You can wear a dress and still be all noble and strong dammit.

Actually, I never interpreted this to be the case - from what I got when the show was over was that Utena was quite misguided in her quest to be a Prince, to save helpless princesses. As it proved out, Anthy had to save herself after the example Utena set up for her, which had nothing to do with being a prince, in itself - certainly fighting all those duels served no other purpose than to keep Anthy with her under the rules of the Rose Seal, that Akio was upholding for his own ends. Utena's whole prince-act was childish and misguided attempt at expressing her innate nobility - one caused and exploited by Akio almost to the end.

Ultimately, I didn't see all that much positive in how the series presented princeliness - there's genuine good will behind the act, but it doesn't neccecarily reach good goals. What Dios managed to acheive, except making the people violently dependant on himself?

The movie does the rejection of Princehood even more explictly - Utena flatly refuses the offer of the power of miracles and instead pursues a true Revolution away from the world that forces people into such premade roles as Prince or Witch.

Razara · Back to Top

I know that the animators did their best, but there were a tone of art errors. Not just in proportions either, but there was a serious issue with details on the clothing disappearing and then reappearing again. Since I've spent at least ten or fifteen minutes redesigning every detail, I tend to know what should be there and what shouldn't, so I've caught a lot of these errors.

I considered making a thread about it, but I thought that it would be rude of me to point out all of their mistakes. o_o

Hina the Prince wrote:
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/revelation … ap0288.jpg "I have no face! 8D"

It's symbolic... Probably.

dollface wrote:
-Kozue's character SUCKED. I want my brother-loving skank back!

I despise Manga-Kozue. The fact that she's supposedly more realistic makes me hate her even more, because she gives twins everywhere a bad name. emot-mad

Nilamarthiel · Back to Top

Um... so it's a bad thing that I prefer the manga to the anime? emot-frown

SleepDebtFairy · Back to Top

Razara wrote:
dollface wrote:
-Kozue's character SUCKED. I want my brother-loving skank back!
I despise Manga-Kozue. The fact that she's supposedly more realistic makes me hate her even more, because she gives twins everywhere a bad name.

Okay, now I'm curious. emot-gonk

dollface · Back to Top

SleepDebtFairy wrote:
Razara wrote:
dollface wrote:
-Kozue's character SUCKED. I want my brother-loving skank back!
I despise Manga-Kozue. The fact that she's supposedly more realistic makes me hate her even more, because she gives twins everywhere a bad name.
Okay, now I'm curious.

Manga Kozue and anime Kozue are NOT the same person. At all. If you ask me, it's worse than Movie Akio. emot-mad

Alithea · Back to Top

Manga Juri - A straight Juri is um scary, and actually I alwasy like to think of manga Juri as repressed hasn't figured out she likes girls yet teen. And her obession with Touga is er... lame though it isn't really him she's obsessed with. Technically in the manga her obsession for him is just as filler since Ruka left the school...which makes me give a sigh of relief everytime. That sort of "Oh...well that's mildly better than."

As I say quite often the things that makes Juri and interesting character is Shiori and Ruka. The three combined work to create what we love and hate about all of them.

Movie Akio was a bit lame, but as Razara points out to us all in the movie it's Shiori who is really the end of the world. She's doing all the string pulling, aside from ghost Touga who seems to be pulling Shiori's strings. *grin*

brian · Back to Top

The anime is better:
The whole interaction between Juri and Ruka is done better on almost every level. In the manga she comes across as far more gullible than anyone else. Her fanatical desire to deceive herself about Ruka is dramatically unconvincing and psychologically hard to believe. Manga Juri does have some great moments of brittle pride but the anime is still better. One interesting thing is that he makes a crack about her feminity that makes no sense in the context of the manga.

The manga is better:
In the episode where Utena loses and regains Anthy and herself. Touga is manipulative but he also sincerely wants Utena. He shares his desire to reach the castle and the chick speech works better. The interaction between Utena, Anthy, and Wakaba is better done, and we see better how Utena touched Anthy's heart. The one regrettable thing in the manga is that Juri doesn't loan her sword to Utena. During the duel itself he is not as nasty to her even though he is practically killing her. Touga's reaction to defeat is more interesting. Instead of going into a long sulking depression, he jumps up, profers himself as Utena's servant, and keeps on scheming. He is much more resilient. The turning point in his character starts to happen here. Eventually he sees the truth better than Utena. He sees what she is getting suckered into and tries to stop her. At the end of it all he says, "Every time she bested me, I loved her all the more." That is much better than the almost unrelenting cruelty of the anime. In fact there he is needlessly cruel, which not even Akio is.

Hysterical Woman · Back to Top

I had a hard time taking this Touga seriously:
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/revelation … ap0441.jpg

He just looked "developmently disabled" in that scene.

Also, I was tramutized by hetero!Juri in the manga. emot-gonk

guardian_rose · Back to Top

I know the manga was made before the anime, so it wasn't like they knew to put all those things in there but...still!

First off, I just wanted to share with anyone who doesnt listen to commentary... (i usually dont, but i got curious emot-keke )
Ikuhara and Chiho Saito are on the commentary track in the last disc of the US dvd release. in it, they discuss the production of the entire series. you learn such great facts like: the series and manga were made at the same time and the final episode aired on christmas day in japan. (plus much more)

what makes this so relevent is that character development occured in meetings and were produced at the same time... personally i have never heard of such procedures in a production before emot-keke

oh... and just to stay on topic: I hate most of the first 13 episodes. #13 isnt so bad though. the fillers make me want to take a drill to my temple. especially if im tourturing myself with the english voices.

#1 | Back to Top03-14-2007 12:06:48 PM

We Hate SKU!

#2 | Back to Top03-14-2007 12:18:11 PM

Re: We Hate SKU!

YamPuff wrote:

#3 | Back to Top03-14-2007 12:37:13 PM

Re: We Hate SKU!

#4 | Back to Top03-14-2007 12:39:54 PM

Re: We Hate SKU!

YamPuff wrote:

#5 | Back to Top03-14-2007 01:04:59 PM

Re: We Hate SKU!

Maarika wrote:

YamPuff wrote:

#6 | Back to Top03-14-2007 01:14:56 PM

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Hina the Prince wrote:

#7 | Back to Top03-14-2007 01:32:59 PM

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#8 | Back to Top03-14-2007 01:35:06 PM

Re: We Hate SKU!

dollface wrote:

#9 | Back to Top03-14-2007 01:36:50 PM

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dollface wrote:

#10 | Back to Top03-14-2007 01:53:01 PM

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dollface wrote:

#11 | Back to Top03-14-2007 01:55:20 PM

Re: We Hate SKU!

Epi_lepsia wrote:

dollface wrote:

#12 | Back to Top03-14-2007 02:02:35 PM

Re: We Hate SKU!

Clarice wrote:

#13 | Back to Top03-14-2007 02:07:29 PM

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dollface wrote:

#14 | Back to Top03-14-2007 02:09:54 PM

Re: We Hate SKU!

Hina the Prince wrote:

#15 | Back to Top03-14-2007 02:11:27 PM

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Giovanna wrote:

dollface wrote:

#16 | Back to Top03-14-2007 02:44:56 PM

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dollface wrote:

#17 | Back to Top03-14-2007 02:49:03 PM

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YamPuff wrote:

#18 | Back to Top03-14-2007 04:41:28 PM

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Hina the Prince wrote:

dollface wrote:

#19 | Back to Top03-14-2007 05:48:14 PM

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#20 | Back to Top03-14-2007 05:50:16 PM

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Razara wrote:

dollface wrote:

#21 | Back to Top03-14-2007 06:08:01 PM

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SleepDebtFairy wrote:

Razara wrote:

dollface wrote:

#22 | Back to Top03-14-2007 06:34:47 PM

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#23 | Back to Top03-14-2007 06:36:30 PM

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#24 | Back to Top03-14-2007 08:22:28 PM

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#25 | Back to Top03-14-2007 09:20:59 PM

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