*coughcoughsometimesaskimpyanimationbudgetisjustaskimpyanimationbudgetcough*

*coughcoughlikeeveryduelinthethirdarcblatentlyreusesanimationfromthestudentcouncilarccough*

Man, clearly I need a lozenge.

Blade wrote:

If Utena wins on her own, you give her credit for winning through skill. If Utena is getting knocked around and is on the defensive, then wins through use of magic, you also give her credit for skill. Why?

That's not at all what I'm saying. The sum total of my point is simply "Utena does have skill and it is not fair to say she completely lacks it." I am not suggesting that Utena would win every duel or that she is not (at least in the first arc), as Touga says, "an amateur." I am simply saying that she does have skill, and if she didn't, it would be a rather ridiculous move on the part of the creators because she's shown over and over again to have extraordinary athletic ability and coordination and some of that must carry over to duels, especially when Utena believes Anthy is on the line. 

As for the duels: I don't know if we just see it irreconcilably or what, but I just don't see what you're saying, especially in regards to the Black Rose duelists. There are certainly a number of cases in which Utena is on the brink of losing when Dios arrives, but in the Kozue duel, for example, when Kozue says "it's over," Utena of her own ability (by my reckoning, but at any rate not clearly influenced by magic) does one of her patented backflips to dodge it -- then summons Dios. That isn't at all "Utena is losing! Dios comes to the rescue."

There are also few duels in which Utena shows a true and unreserved willingness to fight. In the Black Rose duels, she spends a lot of time trying to snap the duelist out of trying to fight her and take/kill Anthy. She tries to talk them out of it -- she isn't just concerned with beating them.

I can (for one, he's not even trying to beat her through much of the fight), but as noted several times before, I don't think the duels are real tests of skill in any meaningful way.

Judging by his horrified expression when he's beat I can say that at least the moment in which he's charging her he definitely wants to win. I also don't understand why Utena or Juri's lack of skill is such an issue for you if you believe it's not a meaningful test; in your schema, as you've said, what happens on the dueling arena can't be seen in terms of character traits at all, right?

Why exactly is kicking someone cheap? But ignoring that, my point was that this shows Saionji's physical dominance over Utena, a physical dominance he would also have over Juri. She's not ever shown to be particularly physically strong (quite the contrary, actually; Utena shoves her away quickly, and Ruka easily overpowers her).

Kicking someone isn't a display of swordsmanship, which is what dueling's all about. And it is infinitely easier to be a bigger person and just dominate over someone physically (especially by something as simple as kicking) than to learn the techniques of swordsmanship and execute them with the control and precision Juri does. My point here is not that Juri is stronger physically than Saionji; Saionji probably stronger than anyone else who goes into the arena, besides Akio and maybe Touga. My point is that even if one considers it irrelevant, both on the field and off the field, Juri displays a lot more skill than anybody else (with the exception of Ruka, who himself bows to her "vastly greater" potential).

Ragnarok wrote:

Especially since animating Juri imitating Utena's fighting style saves no time or money.

(If you meant that as a joke, I apologise, but I'm not certain...)

Animating Juri and Ruka doing the exact same animation sequences as Utena and Juri actually saves both time and money. That's also why they do it constantly in the duel sequences in the video game (sometimes with hilarious results).

Blade wrote:

I use the term "knocked around" for a good reason - because Utena gets knocked around by people. Kozue, for instance, knocks her sprawling against a desk. Does Utena do anything like that to Kozue? Not that I recall. So, hence my comment that the BRD's are always "winning on points". Even Kanae hurls Utena back and Utena gets no meaningful offence in in return, so why should I assume that Utena would prevail without the magic 'I win' button?

Because the Black Rose duelists will win at any cost and Utena... won't? Same goes for some of the other duelists. Utena is determined, but she often doesn't have the viciousness that duelists like Juri, Saionji, and the Black Rose kids do. It wouldn't be in keeping with her character to do something like knock Kozue, the sister of her friend, sprawling on a desk.

To clarify, I'm not suggesting here that Utena would win with or without Dios in these cases. I honestly think it's unclear. I just don't think it's fair to say she'd definitively lose.

Neither is virtually anybody fighting Utena.

But none of the others are trying to do what Utena is doing (reason with Utena). Utena is concerned with sustaining a dialogue. In the Kanae duel, she's horrified and surprised at Kanae's viciousness. When she realizes Kanae will not be reasoned with, Dios comes; in that case, because Utena was distracted by attempting to reason with Kanae, it's unclear who would have won had Dios not come.

It's an issue only because I feel you're making a conclusion I don't understand even if I accept for the sake of argument that skill is involved.

OK, fair enough.

And actually, I said that what happens in the duelling arena is 100% related to character traits, so I'm not certain why you'd say the opposite.

But you specifically said skill isn't relevant (I think)? Do I misunderstand something?

Neither is using magic, shoving people, Anthy distracting your opponent, using psychological warfare, or driving a motorcycle. I think that leaves Nanami as the only "non-cheap" duellist, and she attacks people with a knife after the battle's over.

OK, see, the thing is, I wasn't denying that. I outright said everyone plays dirty in some fashion (including Juri). I was drawing a distinction between Saionji's methods of dominating Utena and Juri's, and attempting to show that Saionji's tend to be due to natural physical strength whereas Juri displays a lot more skill/technique/etc. We're not analyzing the fairness of the dueling arena, here, we're analyzing what we know of skill levels. I was illustrating that Saionji's methods versus Juri's favor Juri.

Saionji, besides being terribly easy to poke fun of (), is the clearest contrast I can use to make my point because he, Juri and Touga are the ones that really pose a challenge for Utena. Touga fights using very different methods than either of them, and Saionji is also the one other person shown to be very dedicated to his art. The subject of this thread is "How Good is Juri" -- this can and has been tackled in many different ways, but my personal take is basically that she's on another level in comparison to the other duelists. I am attempting to defend this point. That's all.

Remember, this particular branch of discussion stems from someone saying Juri would beat any of the others and my disputing that being necessarily the case. Sure, using greater size and strength isn't as hard as getting greater skill, but it does win most of the time in real life and probably shouldn't be discounted. I wouldn't make Juri a lock in any theoretical duel - again, assuming skill counts for the sake of argument - against any of the Seitokai, save Nanami. They're all very skilled, and they all have their own advantages.

Given Utena, it seems to depend on who has had memories of their traumatic experiences jolted before the duel. Yay! At any rate, I do see your point, but I do think that at least in the cases of Saionji and Miki, she's shown to be the superior fighter: for one thing, neither of their duels pose as much of a challenge to Utena (which I consider valid), and for another, Juri just flat-out beats the crap out of a lot more people than either.

I suppose my take is that yes, in real life, a taller, stronger man with a sword will win against a girl with a sword, yes, unless the girl was very very lucky and talented. That's biological reality, but the lovely thing about the sort of show where girls fight in general is that's boring and skill isn't, so skill matters more.

Kicking someone isn't a display of swordsmanship, which is what dueling's all about.

In fact kicking someone is a display of swordsmanship - that is, knowing when it's good time to do that. Blade is just one of many things you can use as a weapon in swordfight.

I suppose my take is that yes, in real life, a taller, stronger man with a sword will win against a girl with a sword, yes, unless the girl was very very lucky and talented.

Well, not really - it all depends who is more skilled. Reach, strength and speed are all irrelevant against greater skill, which contains the knowledge of how to exploit these properties in the enemy. That isn't to say that those properties can't give you victory, if you know how to use them for your benefit. If the opponents are equally skilled, they may define the victor, but that isn't an absolute rule, even then. In case of Utena and Saionji, Saionji has the advantage of both skill and physical factors, but has the serious flaw of arrogance, which Utena manages to exploit, albeit subconsiously, in the first duel.

Blade wrote:

Sure, but it'd certainly be in character for her to not let herself be treated so. IE, these people still broke through her guard. I will happily grant your point Utena isn't trying to be nearly as violent in response; by the same token, I think if she ever saw an opportunity to slice a rose off, she'd take it. So she didn't manage to see and/or exploit openings in their guard like they did in hers.

None of them slice off her rose, though, either. Pushing someone to gain an advantage must be easier than cutting off the rose, since so many duellists do it, but fail to beat Utena. So there's no way to say Utena couldn't 'break their guard' by shoving them, if she dueled that way. Right? Plus, since the shove is done to gain advantage and Utena still manages to keep her opponents at bay, that shows some level of skill itself.

Blade wrote:

Nope, I don't think skill is relevent. But character is, because these duels are a test of Utena's character (in my view of the series). I think letting swordsmanship actually mean something besides the symbolic would hinder that, hence I believe it doesn't (plus I think there's evidence to support this view, of course).

I think we can all agree that skill is irrelevent in who is the winner of the duel, because it's (at least mostly) agreed that Juri has greater skill than Utena. That doesn't make the skill disappear, though. I don't see how, even with the projector, Akio can make Juri less competent in fencing if he wanted to. Or Utena more competent, or have Saionji act in anyway that is not normal behavior. Not that I'm saying you believe that to be true, either.

What I don't get is how Utena getting run around and nearly defeated by Juri tests her (Utena's) character. Nor how she 'wins' the test by the sword of Dios taking Juri's rose in an impossible dive.

Blade wrote:

Sometimes a skimpy animation budget is just a skimpy animation budget.

(Fixed to remove the smartass. )

I don't disagree that the animation budget was slim. That much is grossly obvious through the entire series, as is that SKU was the first full length series that animation house did. (They make a lot of amateur errors.) However I suspect both sides of that coin are inaccurate extremes; did no thought go into how they did things cheaply? Was every minute detail and repeated shot deliberate and poured over and loaded with meaning? Both are probably off the mark; it's entirely possibly to do things cheaply and still be keeping to the spirit of the series. If you want to write off things like Juri and Ruka's duel mirroring Utena and Juri's, you also have to completely null Touga's entire character for disappearing for a whole arc, because his voice actor went on vacation. Art shapes itself around sometimes limiting circumstances, but it's no less art for it.

Blade wrote:

(Of course, the real threat to any duellist Juri is Touga, who undoubtedly knows ALL her psychological weaknesses. But that's something else again. )

Knows them, yes, but Touga's in about as good a position to directly tamper with them as Akio was. Which is to say, HEY LOOK A DYING GUY.

Syna wrote:

Juri's shoves are I think carefully timed so they are to the end of revealing some blunder Utena's made, as opposed to Saionji and Touga and Nanami actually trying to use it to win...

This definitely sounds right to me, she seems to have picked it up from Ruka, who was training her, after all.

Syna wrote:

I personally suspect Touga's just not interested in skill. I can't see him putting in the requisite practice hours that Juri and even Saionji do to get to the level they're at. Why would he, when it's so much more interesting and satisfying to manipulate your opponent psychologically (and in this case get a chance at sleeping with them)?

Touga:  You'll be the champion of the local tournament this year again.
Saionji:  One of the reasons that I hate you is the way you're conceited now.
Touga:  Oh?
Saionji:  You are right. I will be the champion again this year.
Saionji:  But you think that that's meaningless child's play... and you're laughing in your heart.

I think aside from the competition itself, Saionji's referring to Touga's view on the skill itself, that he thinks skill is silly and not good for very much. It's not as practical as his methods, so why be so taken with it?

Lightice wrote:

I think the idea is that she doesn't give up. If she gives up, nothing can help her win, but even on the ground without her sword she doesn't lose her resolve to win. With Touga she suddenly loses her resolve and loses, but with Juri she gets supernatural aid as long as she keeps herself together, which she does, until the end.

That comes back around to the duels as a sculpting tool. Perhaps the point there was to keep Utena on her toes? After all she keeps winning, she might have gotten overconfident if she hadn't been reminded her status hangs by a thread.

Lightice wrote:

Well, I don't want to argue, either, but I'm not entirely without real world-data on the subject.

Nor am I. And I also have an absolute wealth of historical precedent on my side, though I agree partially in that swords - like any weapon - lessen (but in no way remove) the advantages of size and strength, and that as you say cinematic swordfighting bears terribly little resemblence to the real thing. But as I said, I'm not going to argue the point - I've noticed in other forums that some people take this sort of debate very personally, so would rather not risk it, sorry. We'll have to agree to disagree?

Last edited by Blade (01-08-2007 08:10:22 AM)

Blade wrote:

Sure, but it'd certainly be in character for her to not let herself be treated so. IE, these people still broke through her guard. I will happily grant your point Utena isn't trying to be nearly as violent in response; by the same token, I think if she ever saw an opportunity to slice a rose off, she'd take it. So she didn't manage to see and/or exploit openings in their guard like they did in hers.

This is very tricky to argue and in a few duels where she's especially distressed I do see what you mean. The thing is, though, I don't see her missing any opportunities to slice off a rose, nor do I see the other duelist's attempts to break through Utena's guard usually helpful to them.

It's not in Utena's character to be treated like that, true, but I think that manifests more in Utena's being very determined to win, not Utena willing to shove people around. I think it's more in keeping with her character to think, "Well, I'll beat you, and I'll beat you honorably -- then, you'll see." 

Honestly, though, let's look at the Wakaba duel. What Utena manages against somebody with Saionji's skill is pretty damn remarkable - she not only beats Wakaba without a sword, but without Dios, and that's not the only time she doesn't rely on Dios. That's gotta say something.

What you (seemingly?) said before is you didn't think Utena would lose to any of the BRDs even without the magic 'I win', which I object to (since all of them are winning until then save Wakaba, even granting they're more aggressive).

I didn't quite phrase it right, honestly: I meant to say that I really don't see at all how the duels suggest that Utena was losing or the BRDs would win before Dios descends. I do think there's just no logical way of knowing what would happen in this case, however (and after really thinking about it, I don't think in most cases Utena would lose). But we may have to leave it at I'm simply not willing to grant this, because in the Kozue duel all I see is a) Utena not getting why the cute little sister is doing this, b) Utena and Kozue in a stalemate (trying to dominate each other through strength when their swords are crossed and both failing) c) Utena's sword getting knocked away, but by her own actions dodging Kozue's attack, retrieving the sword, and summoning Dios. That, to me, isn't proof she's "more than a match" for Utena. The deadlocks they find themselves in there suggest they're pretty evenly matched to me. In Tswabuki's situation... his duel ends very quickly, and Utena, again, slices off the rose without Dios. Tswabuki, like Nanami, is vicious, but that's about all.

I think letting swordsmanship actually mean something besides the symbolic would hinder that, hence I believe it doesn't (plus I think there's evidence to support this view, of course).

'kay, in that case I think so too, I just... think it actually happens.

So while I agree that the IRL gross advantages of size and strength are downplayed, they are clearly still a factor that can counterbalance greater skill (hence, while agreeing Juri is more skilled than Saionji, I'm not entirely sure I believe that means she would necessarily beat him).

To this I believe I can say, with some qualifications, "If Utena can beat Saionji, Juri definitely can." Now, that's not to discount the Dios Factor in the Saionji duels, but I do want to bring up once again that if size and strength are so important, Saionji would be able to be as challenging to Utena as Juri is, which he isn't. He is challenging, but I just don't see the challenge being as great as Juri's. So on the Utena-barometer, at least, Juri comes out the winner.

I also think what Ruka says is important. If Juri were at the top of her game, she'd beat Ruka -  and the insinuation is, if Ruka were also at the top of his game, since he's talking about the old days with her. (After all, even Ruka doesn't give Utena as hard a time as Juri does, which to me is a major alarm-bell that Ruka as himself is touching some very crippling psychological weaknesses Juri has in relation to him. Juri has no such weaknesses in relation to really any other duelist.)

Giovanna wrote:

Knows them, yes, but Touga's in about as good a position to directly tamper with them as Akio was. Which is to say, HEY LOOK A DYING GUY.

Exactly. Akio does not mess with Juri without the Ruka Shield. Touga doesn't mess with Juri at all except for his little "I KNOW JURI'S SEEEEEKRIT" remarks. (Err, well, more like, "haha, see how well-connected and perceptive I am, Juri" to which Juri goes "...." and Touga is like "thank god she's busy being totally emo and doesn't care enough to challenge my superiority over the council OH GOD DAMMIT BLACK ROSE ARC but she's still way whinier than me so I'm okay." Or something :p)

Blade wrote:

Really, arranging for someone to win or lose a fight when you control what the opponents actually see would be remarkably simple.

The problem I'm seeing with this in general is simply that it isn't emphasized in the show, not even in 38. Now, I'm not saying "CARS REALLY GO RUNNING AROUND THE ARENA! W00T." But I just don't see a reason for actions to be orchestrated like this, nor proof. To my reckoning, it's too important not to be at least spelled out: in Akio's "Ohtori is an illusion" speech he would have emphasized that hey, Utena, you really weren't even fighting AT ALL, none of it counts because we manipulated everything for you and you would have lost without Dios. In short, conceivably it could happen, but I see no reason to think so.

Blade wrote:

The illusion projector doesn't make Saionji act differently; Anthy can and does, though.

Well yeah, through carefully timed comments and actions, which have been pointed out recently in another thread.

Last edited by Syna (01-09-2007 10:41:49 PM)

The idea of strength and size in terms of the duels in SKU is interesting - It's obvious that being able to physically beat or push around your opponent is helpful, but the only way to win is to remove their rose with your sword. Reach certainly has an advantage, and there may be a component of strength as well in pushing your sword to it beyond a parry, but really, skill and speed are the most important aspects, because in a lot of ways it's most similar to European sport fencing. I agree that Saionji and Touga are undoubtedly physically stronger than Juri, but it's irrelevant if she can cut off their rose first.

I don't really have any doubt that Juri is the most skilled in terms of duelling, as she's the only person to have the reflexes neccessary to parry a Dios thrust. I also feel that she was pretty much guaranteed to lose - Anthy and Akio are rigging the entire set of events in order to breed up the best possible candidate to try and free Anthy. While Utena does undergo a lot of developments over the course of the series (Although the last few episodes definitely trump the rest of it), very little is actually through overcoming the physical challenges of duelling. Excluding Utena on the basis of her practicing the wrong type of sports seems silly. I'm not sure if Akio and Anthy rigged things like this before, or as consistently, but I wouldn't doubt it.

The first duel with Juri is really interesting! I don't think they pulled their punches with the Dios Thrust, but at the same time I feel like the entire INTENTION was to crush her with the sword-fall miracle, since that's what would devastate her the most and that's what Anthy gets off on. Did they anticipate that she was too strong-willed and too skilled to lose to a conventional fencer? I think to a certain degree the characters themselves can exert some sort of influence on things. Most of them don't, since they're hoping to -obtain- power, and by exclusion this implies that they do not feel as though they have that power to begin with. Juri doesn't need power, she just needs proof. I feel that a straight swordfight is the kind of loss she'd gladly accept, since she can come to terms with it, but in the Duelling Arena, she's too strong willed for that to even be possible. Her reliance on her martial skill, over that of other people who fight for a particular person, or personal cause, is what I feel makes her almost invulnerable.