Yasha wrote:

Aelanie wrote:

"Victim" and "helpless innocent" are not synonymous.

Tell that to half of tumblr. The whole reason I don't use the word victim is because I don't want to subscribe to the mentality that having bad shit happen to you means you are the passive object being acted upon by your circumstances, which the word "victim" certainly does imply. Anthy is not a passive object, therefore I do not use the word victim. If you take issue with that, that's cool, but I prefer to avoid that implication when I'm talking about a character I respect.

Fair enough, then - though if we are allowing the likes of Tumblr to dictate and enforce their loaded interpretations of words in completely unrelated spaces, our troubles may be bigger than we realized...

Last edited by Aelanie (09-11-2013 02:02:43 AM)

Aelanie wrote:

...I don't really get what point you're trying to make here. You wrote a lot of words but didn't seem to actually say anything. All I can get out of it is, "people are different and react differently to things", which...completely and totally agrees with what I said.

You argued that failing to overcome adversity was an issue of inner strength. I tend to have a problem with that view as it often contributes to the philosophy of blame you discussed. A woman's submission to domestic abuse, for example, should not be attributed to a deficit in "strength of character." To say that these people are pitiable only contributes to the patronizing attitude of blame culture.

I work with an immigrant mother who frequently endures physical abuse. Yet she says that this is the symbol of her strength and cultural empowerment because "women were meant to bleed and smile." While I definitely don't agree with/condone her worldview, I have to work past the tendency to see her as inherently weak and inferior because of her choices. To do so would be dehumanizing, not empowering.

Overall, I agree with many of the points you've made and think that they're very well-stated. This is just one nit-picky area of debate for me.

Not saying you should. I'm just saying it's a damn slippery slope from going "bad shit happens because people are too weak" to "bad shit happens because people deserve it." That said...yeeeeeah. Trying to impartially inhabit the minds/perspectives of people is only a stop short of cultural relativism. No wonder we get the reputation of being evil.

Besides, you know, all the mind games, seduction, and occasional cannibalism (looking at you, Dr. Lecter).

I see that I inferred more from your statements than what was there. My bad entirely. Indeed, we seem to agree that taking situational factors into account is important.

Okay, so I'm about to play devil's advocate again here. Please understand that this is not a reflection of my personal opinion or a critique of yours. It's just an interesting issue to explore.

Aelanie wrote:

But it is a pity that, for whatever reason, she finds it more palatable to remain in that situation than to escape from it.

Why? She claims that she's very content with it and that she would never "abandon" her husband. The whole family espouses very positive views towards what they perceive as justifiable physical discipline - even the kids. What if it truly makes her and them happy?

Last edited by Katzenklavier (09-11-2013 02:47:27 AM)

Not to mention, it's a topic for another thread. If you want to make that thread, Katz, I'd surely join the discussion.

Hmm . . . since this is "The Rapists" thread . . .

Assuming the school is in Tokyo Prefecture, however, a 'Youth Protection Law' raises this to 18. As far as I could tell with a quick googling, every prefecture has laws making the limit 18. So Akio is a disgusting pig either way. emot-dance

If we want to be specific on youth law and all, wouldn't that made Anthy - god knows how many years old - a pig too for her seducing Miki(13) and Saionji(17)? I know her 'human ID' says she's 14, but if we go by 'human ID', then even Akio is only 19 according to what I remember from Yoji E's notes.

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

Anthy's more than just a pig for her manipulations of Miki, Utena, Saionji, Wakaba, Nanami, whomever... she's a goddammed horror show.

Nanami's what, twelve, thirteen? Anthy fucks with her daily, from just playing mind games with her to flat out attacking her with elephants. If you or I did that, we'd be at the very least complete assholes, and we're not even exceptionally long-lived gods with superpowers who know secrets of the universe. It's more forgivable, because it's fiction, these are imaginary people, but still Anthy has motivation for these things, she doesn't necessarily have an excuse.

Word the whole thing, DD.  Double A is the same two-headed serpent - each head representing the most malevolent aspects of the male/female gender role respectively - IMHO.

Edited to add: this is also why I'm continuously baffled by people focusing only on Akio's possible 'Rapist' status.  I mean, hello?  He and and sister are immortal demi gods who rob/steal human souls, then leaving them to ruin!  Seduction is but one of their many underhanded means towards their very selfish ends.  Rape?  It's demons (albeit ones given layered characterizations) preying upon mere humans here.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (09-11-2013 08:12:39 AM)

gorgeousshutin wrote:

this is also why I'm continuously baffled by people focusing only on Akio's possible 'Rapist' status.  I mean, hello?  He and and sister are immortal demi gods who rob/steal human souls, then leaving them to ruin!  Seduction is but one of their many underhanded means towards their very selfish ends.  Rape?  It's demons (albeit ones given layered characterizations) preying upon mere humans here.

That's too easy an excuse, and oversimplifies the interpretive decisions the show is trying to get us to make. Regardless of their backstory and status as some kind of supernatural "other", both Anthy and Akio have all-too-human qualities and personalities, and the show wants us to make judgements on what they do and how they think through that lens of human feelings and motivations that we share with them. (It could hardly ask us to do otherwise, after all.) Waving all that aside with a "they're not human, so they're beyond being quantified by us" is a cop-out, and a disservice to the questions about humanity the show is asking its viewers to consider.

Last edited by Aelanie (09-11-2013 10:26:29 PM)

Aelanie wrote:

Regardless of their backstory and status as some kind of supernatural "other", both Anthy and Akio have all-too-human qualities and personalities, and the show wants us to make judgements on what they do and how they think through that lens of human feelings and motivations that we share with them. (It could hardly ask us to do otherwise, after all.) Waving all that aside with a "they're not human, so they're beyond being quantified by us" is a cop-out and a disservice to the questions about humanity the show is asking its viewers to consider.

I can't say whether your point speaks directly to shutin's, but I agree with what you're saying here.  It's not like we're talking about unfathomable Cthulhu and Azathoth here.  Demigods or not, Akio and Anthy present themselves as humans, they move in the human world, and they have human emotions.  We are invited to judge them in human terms.  If we decline the invitation and decide not to judge them, then it shouldn't be because we can't judge demigods; it should be because we can't judge humans.

satyreyes wrote:

Aelanie wrote:

Waving all that aside with a "they're not human, so they're beyond being quantified by us" is a cop-out and a disservice to the questions about humanity the show is asking its viewers to consider.

I can't say whether your point speaks directly to shutin's

It doesn't, as "they're not human, so they're beyond being quantified by us" never came out of my writing.

me wrote:

He and and sister are immortal demi gods who rob/steal human souls, then leaving them to ruin!  Seduction is but one of their many underhanded means towards their very selfish ends.  Rape?  It's demons (albeit ones given layered characterizations) preying upon mere humans here.

My point is that Double A are shown to destroy people totally, not just sexually. See what they did to Nerumo, to Kanae - neither of whom were given any choice as they each got totally destroyed in their own way (character corrupted + existence erased versus becoming a vegetable).  So it baffles me when some people focus only on Akio's interaction with Utena and Anthy (both of whom having a choice in the matter) as being 'rape', when both he and Anthy are shown  guilty of So. Much. Worse.

KY wrote:

But we see many occasions on which people talk to him without things coming off as highly questionable.  Sometimes they're only mildly questionable!  And as I pointed out, you can also shove him in the face or calmly and politely tell him to fuck off.

KY wrote:

But during the (metaphorical?) motorcycle ride, Touga expresses the danger of standing up to Akio.  That does not sound to me like someone who feels free to refuse a (not so) hypothetical advance.

Urm . . . Touga cannot afford to be confrontational against Akio when he needs victor-fate info from him now, I don't think.
As I said upthread:

I myself figured that having failed in saving her by dueling, the boys now are trying to get a better handle on Akio via this interaction.

I see said interaction as likely initiated by Touga, and is one where the boys join forces to pry the needed info out of Akio's mouth via seduction.  Then again  Akio is shown posing too aka seducing them right back, leaving the boys none the wiser after the act.

gorgeousshutin wrote:

KY wrote:

But during the (metaphorical?) motorcycle ride, Touga expresses the danger of standing up to Akio.  That does not sound to me like someone who feels free to refuse a (not so) hypothetical advance.

Urm . . . Touga cannot afford to be confrontational against Akio when he needs victor-fate info from him now, I don't think.
As I said upthread:

I myself figured that having failed in saving her by dueling, the boys now are trying to get a better handle on Akio via this interaction.

I see said interaction as likely initiated by Touga, and is one where the boys join forces to pry the needed info out of Akio's mouth via seduction.  Then again  Akio is shown posing too aka seducing them right back, leaving the boys none the wiser after the act.

And I interpret that line differently from either of y'all.   I think Touga has enough information at this point to know that Akio and Anthy are going to do something bad (probably lethal) to the Champion Duelist.  I don't think he's under any illusion at this point that the Champion Duelist might survive by giving in to Akio's advances.  The Champion Duelist is toast.  That's why he's dueling Utena: he's trying to save her (against her will) even at the cost of his own safety.  In other words, he's trying to be a prince.  He's being a chauvinist about it, because princes as portrayed in SKU are pretty chauvinistic figures, and Touga has been a chauvinist for a long time and he won't change his spots quickly, but that duel is nevertheless borne of Touga's good intentions.

Fake edit: Kita's last post went up as I was finishing this.  Yes, exactly.

Frau Eva wrote:

I honestly believe that Akio and Anthy's relationship makes practically no sense if you don't realize they're immortal and have only been able to depend on each other for thousands of years.

Lots of people - an unfortunate and high number, anyway - have relationships that involve cyclical violence, manipulation, and even incest. They don't have to be immortal or, necessarily, feel otherwise isolated from the rest of the world.

Frau Eva wrote:

They're the only ones who understand each other and their history, the only ones they can act with on relatively equal footing, etc. If you were alone for eternity with just your sibling and a bunch of ignorant animals, you'd probably eventually screw each other. Something that awful seems pretty much a given in that situation.

Depends on what you consider "equal footing." I don't believe power differentials or authority are the only qualifiers for equality or civil indulgence. They're not required to see less-powerful or shorter-lived life as inherently beneath them.

It's cute, and sweet, and rewarding to see Anthy treat animals so well, especially the often-dismissed, like her pet snails or pet mongoose - even inanimate, unthinking objects like the school festival balloon she's saved, except, in the end, that's how she's treating the human beings in her life as well. Miki's just a snail in a pencil box. No matter how kindly you smile and open it up to give some attention, it's dickish.