This could be slightly it for Nanami's Case she exclaims that "My ring was given to me by my prince! My Prince will lead me to victory!" If you notice Touga's off to the side, ithout a care in the world, so Touga wasn't evengoing ot help her . then when she had lost, she had to prove to everyone that Utena was nothing special, since Nanami is the only thing special in Youga's life, which is what enrages her to the extreme, only the memory of the Kitten stopped her from killing Utena.

Syna wrote:

Another thing I noticed, having watched the first arc's Touga episodes again: Anthy's private mental monologue during Utena's second duel just doesn't seem to insinuate to me that the game itself is rigged for Utena at all. I do think that, as has been said before, if Utena wants to win, the power is there: she's never defeated when that's what she's going for. But Anthy is never sitting there, cackling, going "sorry, Touga, you're beat" -- and she has no one to manipulate in this case. Same goes for when the Sword of Dios disappears. That would lend evidence to both Utena and Juri having some measure of skill because the game is not fully orchestrated, even though given Utena's determination, Juri is certainly rigged to lose.

Yes, that's something I brought up (I think) in the Utena/Anthy thread. Anthy seems completely convinced that Utena is going to lose in her rematch with Touga, certainly to the point that she's not trying to interfere. But Utena persists, putting her very life in danger. Anthy then does get involvedl, costing Touga the duel not by controlling anybody, but by retracting the power she'd placed in the sword of Dios. Ergo she does manipulate the duels, but not the actions of the duellists. Utena beats Touga for two reasons. The fact that Touga is surprised when the sword is depowered, and by reminding Anthy of Dios, thereby causing her to depower it in the first place. One is a test of Utena's will, the other is simply to signify the end of the test.

Likewise in Saionji's third duel, Utena would have lost if Anthy had not decided (mid-duel) to push her out of Saionji's way and draw Utena's prince sword. And so on for the rest of the duels; Anthy is in Utena's corner and she helps out, including the miracle in Juri's first duel. But it still depends on Utena to meet the challenge in the first place, which is why the power of Dios doesn't happen at the start of every duel and end things immediately.

Giovanna wrote:

I don't think he designed the duel to have Saionji win, and I don't think it was part of the grand plan originally, but I think he let it be a little more in the air than he'd usually let it be, because had Saionji won, he wouldn't have lost any sleep over it. That episode, and the batch surrounding it, are full of Akio and Anthy biting at each other over how close Anthy is getting to Utena. Closer, obviously, than Akio is comfortable with. I don't think a vacation would have bothered him much. (I can't help but wonder if that's part of why he moves them in with him.)

Oh, I've always wanted a filler episode on the why and hows of their move to the Tower! And that's always been my suspicion on why also.

Giovanna wrote:

Blade wrote:

The participants climbed the stairs into the Chairman's Tower, not an arena. They fight in front of Akio, who is probably lounging on the couch, maybe sipping brandy, possibly getting a blowjob from Anthy, smirking. There are no schooldesks there. There are no cars there. When it rains in Juri's second duel, there is no rain there. Nobody is actually even getting wet.

Or you can word it in a way that makes me loathe to argue with it.

I think you're taking things a little out of proportion, the series, even despite its illusory qualities, quite clearly illustrates they're two different places. I don't think the illusion is sustained that way the entire series, the illusions appear in the last two episodes and the location keeps changings. But then, I tend to take the projector metaphor rather literally, and I think the Illusion Machine, whatever it is or whoever controls it, functions the way a projector would, and I don't think Akio would go so far as to orchestrate an illusion like that (even with the blowjob) when he can just make another wing of the school.

If nothing else, I don't think Akio would want the inverted castle, illusory or not, to be where his office is. It's a convenient mechanism for the duels, but somehow I suspect Akio wouldn't choose to have it rubbed in his face 24/7.

I can't believe that EVERYTHING is an illusion. I certainly think that the characters and their actions during the duel are real. Their surroundings, their clothes and their weapons? Debatable.

Blade wrote:

Giovanna wrote:

I think you're taking things a little out of proportion, the series, even despite its illusory qualities, quite clearly illustrates they're two different places.

I'll apparently have to rewatch the end of the series again sometime for direct references, but I am quite, quite certain that Akio says quite clearly the duelling arena doesn't exist as anything but an illusion. Seriously, I'd put money on that being pretty explicitly shown.

Oh please do.

To be honest, most of my attention when I watch the end of the series is of a psychological nature. That said, I wouldn't trust Akio to be speaking literally if he says one thing or another is an illusion. And if the arena is an illusion that doesn't necessarily mean it's an illusion that occupies the same space as the tower.

Talking completely out of my arse based on how I see Akio, it would appeal to his sensibilities for the tower itself to be the 'real' part of the school. Where the illusions all come from; not part of the illusions themselves, as he's 'above' those. Naturally it would present no problem at all for him to create the illusion of the tower in the arena for the purposes of example, but his office is his seat of power, representative of himself and the illusions that exist through him. You go to a planetarium and see a projection of the stars on a dome, and they're false, but the projector is real. Something has to be real or there's nothing to create the image you see.

Blade wrote:

Hmm? No, the tower is real, I just am sure the duelling arena isn't. But as I said, I'm pretty certain he either says or incredibly heavily implied the duelling arena is actually the planetarium projector room.

If you think about it, though, it makes sense. The huge spiralling staircase, and the elevator that gets revealed later (coincidentally just when Utena moves in) are right there in the Chairman's tower. We see dozens of Akio Cars in the projector room all the time, and when Utena fights Akio, we see representations of all the different iterations of the duelling arena. All of that indicates he doesn't seem to mind putting illusions in that room, either.

Hmm. I wouldn't rule that out, it does make sense. (And I don't think he'd mind putting illusions in the room, but when you see Utena sitting there with him yapping about silk and hearts, it's a real and static place under no influence of illusion.) But we see Utena walk across the school toward the forest and this that and the other thing, why could he put the arena in his office when there's a plain spot in the school where it's supposed to be?

And I've always, for some reason, assumed the balcony people watch the duels from is the 'same' place that that student council balcony on the tower is. It overlooks the duel forest, and the illusion is that suddenly during a duel it zooms in and becomes closer. Kinda like a warped spatial change the occurs when the gate is opened and that flower thing pops up, etc, etc. But that stems from the assumption some part of the school overlooks the arena, and it would be the tower.

Edit: VVVVVV My god that whole chunk of dialogue smells like ego. But it supports what I'm arguing, so yay.

Yes, but another contradicting piece of evidence I noticed is, when he opens the windows and show's the world as it is, you see the tower in front of Akio though he's apparently "Inside of it."

Giovanna wrote:

I don't think he designed the duel to have Saionji win, and I don't think it was part of the grand plan originally, but I think he let it be a little more in the air than he'd usually let it be, because had Saionji won, he wouldn't have lost any sleep over it. That episode, and the batch surrounding it, are full of Akio and Anthy biting at each other over how close Anthy is getting to Utena. Closer, obviously, than Akio is comfortable with. I don't think a vacation would have bothered him much. (I can't help but wonder if that's part of why he moves them in with him.)

So if Saionji had won, would Akio have kicked Utena out? And then had Saionji move in? And sleep with Anthy on the half-circles bed!

These are the sorts of situations that made me want to see Utena lose more often!

FWIW the original manga implied that Utena was a very skilled fencer in her own right although Juri was slightly better. It appears there that the gap between the best and worst duellists was not terribly wide.

Syna wrote:

Hence another reason why I think Juri's the best: Saionji and Touga never run her around the ring so casually as Juri does.

There's another possible reason, though I have no idea whether the creators actually had it in mind - kendo is far more lethal sport than sport fencing. Although training for both can be used in deadly manner, kendo is still closer to a martial art than sport and Touga and Saionji must hold back with their sharp blades to avoid real bloodshed - although Saionji certainly never seems to be very careful about that. As both Saionji and Touga are credited as extremely skilled swordsmen outside the Arena, though with shinais, not sharp blades, this idea popped into my mind once.

If you watch the duels, it's hard to come away with the notion that Utena's a competent duellist (or at least any sort of match for any of the others), since she is nearly always completely on the defensive and getting knocked around until "Dios" shows up. Very rarely does she get in any offence or even do much but steadily retreat (once again, even to Kanae) until her magic "I Win" button kicks in. She's not quite a bumbling idiot or anything, but it's pretty clear she'd lose a real swordfight against well over half of her opponents in the series, and by no small margin either. 

Hence, I doubt it was simply left up to chance that she won't lose.

As for Juri compared to everybody else, ignoring my point that that's her "challenge" to Utena, Juri never kicks Utena around like Saionji does, either.

Not contradicting, per se, but I don't see Juri's duels as being casual. She takes one obvious liberty, stopping her sword next to Utena's eye and then drawing the duel out longer than she implies is necessary. Even so, she's very focused throughout.

By "casually," I simply meant that she outmaneuvers Utena so skillfully that she at least appears casual -- it's clear she doesn't seem to be expending as much effort as Saionji, for example, does, though that's also just Saionji being his intense self. (That's a good observation, though, and I agree, Juri's anger is extremely focused, especially in relation to Saionji's, which is all over the place.)

There's another possible reason, though I have no idea whether the creators actually had it in mind - kendo is far more lethal sport than sport fencing.

lol, yes, that's true, but as we've said -- the duels are a complete mess stylewise, and they are in fact designed around a more European conception of dueling it seems. In typical anime-style, the creators seem to want to incorporate as many different weapons as possible to make each character distinctive, so I don't know if an analysis of kendo v. fencing is a way to tackle the issue, personally, especially given that the duels are pretty atrociously animated in terms of style. (Seriously. Watch Utena's handling of the sword. Completely aside from moments where she's struggling, her hand positioning is kind of absurd sometimes.) The important thing about the duels is certainly their emotional content and character development (and I do think that what the series does emphasize about style in its sloppy way is important to that).

If you watch the duels, it's hard to come away with the notion that Utena's a competent duellist (or at least any sort of match for any of the others), since she is nearly always completely on the defensive and getting knocked around until "Dios" shows up.

OK, I think part of this is simply that the less tension there is, the less the duel can be sustained. Utena has to go through her requisite "struggling for this" period, which is exemplified by her blocking attacks (used every duel, almost). Utena's style seems to be defensive on the outset, and then she tends to gain up energy as she goes along before she delivers the final blow; Utena does some pretty athletic feats in the dueling arena by my reckoning, something which reflects her out-of-arena self, which is undeniably shown to be very talented physically. And anyway if she won quickly all the time (and she does win quickly some of the time) we wouldn't hear JA's fabulous choruses and get all of the emotional tension we all know and love. Given the character of how Utena retreats and fights, I'm more inclined to chalk it up to the fact that Utena wiping the floor with someone would be boring rather than she's just not talented, period, end of story. The fact she is assisted by Dios is undeniable, but I think there's more to it. Utena's talent at athleticism is something pretty integral to her character and I doubt she'd totally lose it in the arena.

She beats most of the Black Rose Duelists easily. I don't personally see their winning over her, even without Dios, as an option which is insinuated. What's more, there are situations like Utena's second duel with Touga -- Utena beats Touga the second time completely fairly, no Dios-descending involved, excusing the breaking of the extra power of the Sword of Dios, which just leveled the playing field. What's more, she's able to fend off (to a degree) the attack of the Sword of Dios, enhanced, WITH A BROKEN SWORD! I find it quite hard to believe she could do that if she lacks skill.

As for Juri compared to everybody else, ignoring my point that that's her "challenge" to Utena, Juri never kicks Utena around like Saionji does, either.

Kicking somebody is easy (and CHEAP). Dominating somebody with as much careful, mocking restraint as Juri does is far more difficult.

What's more, in the case of Saionji's first duel and Touga's second, we never see Dios descend. In the second case, Touga's shown to be probably on par with Saionji in terms of skill, and Touga falls with no assistance. That, to me, would be extremely unrealistic in a Juri duel.

Last edited by Syna (01-07-2007 07:16:24 PM)

Giovanna wrote:

In Miki and Juri's first duels (and possibly others, but I noticed it there especially), Utena mimics their starting positions and styles.

What I was referring to was the way she grips the sword in an "attack" stance (which I've noticed with others too, and is pretty improbable) but I hadn't realized that. I wonder if that's to show Utena has no specific style of her own, or what?

Giovanna wrote:

This always amused me about Touga's second duel. It's obvious he had the skill and the power to win quickly, but he wanted to bat his prey around like a cat with a mouse and it bit him right in the ass.)

I always found it interesting he felt the need to summon up the extra Dios-sword-power-thing right away. It's clearly not because he's worried; he seemed to want to make some kind of point... unfortunately for him, it's the kind of point Utena doesn't give a damn about.

Giovanna wrote:

It may be nitpicking, but I would suggest kicking is both cheap and the more likely behavior from someone with a sword you're supposed to use both hands to fight with.

That's true, he can't shove as easily, and it's also just Saionji being intense and playing what he's good at (strength). I do still think that it's a heck of a lot harder to be as restrained as Juri is. All the characters except Miki have their moments of fighting "dirty", psychologically or physically or through cheating or whatever -- to Miki's detriment probably -- but Juri's shoves are I think carefully timed so they are to the end of revealing some blunder Utena's made, as opposed to Saionji and Touga and Nanami actually trying to use it to win...

Syna wrote:

Juri never gets the arena yanked out from under her feet. I suspect Touga was in a state of shock when the sword fizzled out on him.

That's true, again, and it does show that Juri's challenge versus Touga's challenge are quite different, and hence the methods of beating them are different; however, I still think he lost to a magic-less girl in a schoolgirl outfit with a broken sword does say something. (That something is certainly not "Touga's not skilled with a sword," but regardless.)

I personally suspect Touga's just not interested in skill. I can't see him putting in the requisite practice hours that Juri and even Saionji do to get to the level they're at. Why would he, when it's so much more interesting and satisfying to manipulate your opponent psychologically (and in this case get a chance at sleeping with them)? I'm pretty sure the times he wins over Saionji would be due to that -- to Saionji having this massive complex in relation to him, rather than Saionji actually being less of a swordsman.

Juri's duel with Ruka has been mentioned a few times, and the fact that she mirrors Utena at the time, but only in passing for other points.

So it's worth pointing out that, for all the skill Juri has, she fights Ruka not only in a method that he can easily defeat, but one that she herself defeated quite some time ago. Ignoring, for the moment, any symbolism involved, there's no logical explanation for Juri to be fighting in a style she knows to be heavily flawed. Unless she's trying to lose, which I doubt, or believes may be Ruka's weakness because he'd just lost to Utena. Also unlikely, because she knows about the Power of Dios on some level, and that she can't mimic it successfully. Then, the very next duel, Juri is at the same level she was during her first duel with Utena, while Utena is at the same level both that she was at back in episode seven, and that Juri was at one car ride ago.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, trying to apply skill levels to these events.