Actually that I recall we've never come to a real consensus on that!

I think episode 9's explanation of episode 9 is safely taken literally. The coffin, and the whole event unfolding around Anthy being in it, has nothing to do with the events that transpire later. It is Touga that tells Utena where Anthy has been taken and it's Touga that has forged a letter from Ends of the World that led Saionji to the same place.  The conversation he has with Ends of the World at the end of the episode suggests he also had complete control over whatever means EotW has to create the illusions in the duel arena. (Whether this is a literal physical object or a projection of will or that Ends of the World just knew what Touga wanted from the scenario, that's up to you.)

Either way, the purpose of the coffin and such in episode 9 cannot be severed then from the purpose Touga had for it. By all appearances, it's an episode that would not have occurred without his interference. And at this stage, he's preparing to duel Utena himself. He knows about her prince, and is banking on using that experience against her.

The scenario Touga constructed seems to me anyway designed to cover several bases--it works to his advantage regardless of how the free agents involved let it play out. Saionji is the easiest of them for Touga to predict, and by design of the illusion is left completely unable to save Anthy. Beyond that, any version of the events playing out favors Touga. If he ends up being the one to save Anthy from the coffin, he's playing on what he already knows is Utena's memory of her prince, past, and emergence from her own coffin. If he doesn't save Anthy because Utena did it first, he knows Saionji will literally lose his shit, and there again can come across as a prince to Utena by protecting her from the attack Touga would anticipate.

This is a theme with Touga, where he tends to hedge his bets when he acts, like he realizes he can't completely control anything, but can turn events enough to favor him in more than one outcome. A diversified portfolio, instead of Ends of the World's 100% blue chip stocks.

Now secondary to the goal of buttering up Utena for his duel, depending on how you read Touga's character, he had intentions for this with Saionji as well. His rather careless attitude about the acts of his best friend and the resulting getting expelled make it seem like Touga was deliberately trying to get him kicked out. That's entirely possible, and why he would do that is again up to the viewer and the version of Touga you read. He gets rid of a considerable opponent this way, yes. Or maybe he gets someone he might care about away from the source of their suffering. Or both. Ultimately though I don't think the scenario was set up with Saionji in mind, aside from that Saionji's predictable temper and naivete would be useful.

I'm the oddball who has a very different opinion on this.

I agree that Touga arranged for the letter to Saionji and the phone call to Utena. I agree that he had the consent of End of the World to do this. However, I am unsold on the idea that End of the World knew about this ahead of time, hence the phone call with the line, "yes, the letter sent to Saionji tonight was from me. Yes, in your name." We can say this was dramatic license so the audience was better filled in, but if EotW was involved with the plan, this part of the phone call is unnecessary. To that end it, it leads me to believe that while EotW allows this to happen he didn't arrange it, and if EotW didn't arrange it, then there is reason at all while Anthy would have collaborated with Touga on this.

For the scenario of the illusion to have been prearranged, Anthy's consent (tacit or otherwise) would have been necessary. While it's certainly possible and even plausible that this is gained, if Touga is acting on his own without the directive of EotW then I see no reason why Anthy would have been an active participant and it's difficult for me to look at Episode 9 with the idea that Touga did this to further his own position without EotW wanting this outcome and thus enlisted a willing Anthy to collaborate.

Since my take on the show has always been that some of the facets of the Dueling game are real, and not just illusions from the projector, my approach on this is very much that what happened in the Arena in Episode 9 is outside of Touga's control. He set things in motion, yes, but once inside there, he was no more in control of it than End of the World would have been.

Again, this is predicated on the idea that the Dueling game, and the eventually opening of the Rose Gate, release of the Miracle Power, etc, are real things which End of the World is trying to manipulate but is just as beholden to as the Duelists themselves are. Ergo, in order for Akio to regain that part of himself that was once Dios, rules exist that he must follow in the same manner than any ancient magic is bound by.

If one accepts that (and I accept that most fans do not), then when Anthy is pleading with Saionji, "No, you mustn't! It's not allowed for anyone not engaged to me to take me to the duel arena without the arrangement of a duel!" this isn't subterfuge. This is a rule that both Akio and Anthy are beholden to as much as the Duelists are, and what happens in the Arena is a consequence of breaking that rule.

And that opens up an entire wealth of speculation on what the coffin, the scenario, etc, all mean within the rules of the Rose Seal.

Last edited by Ashnod (03-11-2016 05:57:27 AM)

I leave a bit of the creator commentary for this episode:

We lined up plot development and visuals suggestive of the series climax. Our goal was to “get viewers anticipating the series’ final scene.”

Utena saves Anthy.

Huh, so that’s what the story’s about.

But what does she save Anthy from?

That’s the central issue.

Interesting, ne?

Salem Saberhagen wrote:

Cryptic as usual... If I were to trust him, I see the central issue, or theme in Utena as "the choice of illusions over reality is destructive." Is there a way the scene reflects this, or another of Utena's important themes?

Or he could just be making fun of his own incoherence. :V

My personal interpretation of the line 'what did she really save her from', is basically: nothing. Nothing actually happened, Utena didn't save Anthy from anything, because there was no threat or anything to save her from. It was all an illusion that she fell for. She got to act super heroic and 'save' Anthy, looking cool and dramatic while doing so. The rest doesn't even matter; I'm pretty sure she doesn't even ask Anthy what happened or what was going on or anything like that. Compared to the emotional intensity of the finale, this episode rings hollow to me on a re-watch.