Flah wrote:

Also, show of hands, the number of people who've chosen to watch Suspiria thanks to this show. *raises hand*

*raises hand* Suspiria was awesome. Yurikuma has so far also made references to Psycho and The Shining. If someone finds other references, please share. :>

After the first two episodes I must say I'm hooked. I don't see this poor character building you write about; I find them diverse enough and intriguing if a bit sketchy yet but I expect them to develop. I definitely took to Lulu - she's a genius after all! I can't say I like any more characters at this point but Ginko is a creep in the way that reminds me somewhat of Twilight's Edward and that cracks me up as well as peaks some interest.

I also wonder about all these enigmatic themes like the Invisible Storm, the Severance Barrier, the court that is sexy, but above all else - how the characters apparently must choose between fighting for their love and being stranded, then most likely die, and being part of a group and thus invisible.
Still, I agree that it's soft porn, and more power to Ikuni since porn with plot is to my liking.

I have to admit though, I completely don't understand one thing. At the end of the first episode, Yurizono finds Ginko and Lulu eating Sumiko but at the end of the second episode, as Yurizono eats an invisible girl, she compares her to Sumika who she found infinitely more delectable. So... who ate Sumika, gaw gaw? Or is it that Ginko and Lulu eat the lily pollen of the girls' hearts whereas Yurizono eats meat? I'm lost! But hooked.

KUMA SHOCK!

In lieu of the characterization talk, it could be ultimately blamed on the length that they are going with which around 12-13 episodes(or a single cour), Penguindrum had the advantage of being a 2 cour series and utena lasted for equivalent of 3 cours with the first ending on the first recap episode, the second ending with Miki's last duel and the final one ending with the final episode of series, please note that the length of a cour varies between 12 or 13 episode so the series technically ended around episode 36 with the episodes afterwards acting as a sort of epilogue to Utena's story now that the show got the student council out of the way which  were the focus for a majority of the series up until episode 36, after episode 36, the student council were only given 2 scenes together not counting the ending, the badminton game in episode 37 which was their last major conversation with Utena and episode 39's camping scene(?).

Yuri Bear Storm should of lasted for 24-26 episode, it would of at least give Ikuhara the time to develop the characters and paced the series as intended, instead he cuts the show's runtime in half and it's going to result in a series that is not as complete as it's predecessors and is going suffer from rushed pacing and underdeveloped character's like with Escalflowne when it was cut down to 26 episodes instead of the intended 39 episodes.

This anime is probably going to be the most self indulgent anime Ikuhara has directed since the mess that was Adolescences of Utena which I'll probably do a new thread about it at some point since that movie showcases some of his biggest faults as a director, but the main thing is that Ikuhara probably made this anime to appease his own lesbian fantasies like with the Adolescence heck this show shares it's architecture with the movie's depiction of ohtori academy, I think Jesuotaku said it best in the commentary of the utena review with Kyle Kallgren that the movie felt a lot sillier then the TV series and I agree, the movie plays out like fan fiction, it felt like a movie that was manufactured to appease the fans who were disappointed with the original ending of the tv series by making UtenaXAnthy canon(I don't know the term shippers use for that pairing) and few other pairing, the animation is a step up from the animation the TV series had, it ends on a happier note compared to bitter sweat ending that the tv series had.

But that's besides the point, the ultimate point of this post is that Ikuhara works best as director when he isn't restricted by the runtime or does't try to carter to himself, its important to restrict yourself to some extent or else the only person that's would enjoy your work is yourself.

Last edited by Rosesareawesome101 (01-16-2015 05:20:41 PM)

I agree that Yuri Kuma would probably be better with more episodes but Lain and Haibane managed to build highly original worlds and convey complex concepts all within 13 episodes. And has been mentioned before Yuri Kuma was conceived as a 12 episode series from the get go. A lot of anime suffer from adaptation decay because their source material is ongoing manga but that is not the case here.

Being a huge Suspiria fan I am enjoying the visuals more than anything else. What I do like about it and hope it gets a greater development is the whole idea that being part of the herd makes you safe while standing up for your love makes you a tastier sacrifice, if you will.

Also, I've been wondering, if all bears became human-eaters does that apply to pandas as well?

Having only watched the first episode, I really don't want to give YKA the same bollocking I gave Penguindrum. But already it's given me a lot to dislike.

Ikuni, who said (shamelessly pasted from wikipedia) -"he likes anime with yuri elements because he feels that when a female character is given a male love interest, the relationship between them tends to overwhelm the other elements of the show" - has already in the first episode slopped up vapid characters that COMPLETELY waste the spirit of that ethos. Perhaps this is the point, perhaps he's deconstructing himself?

Yasha wrote:

Gio and I have decided that you become a bear when your love becomes impure (sexually aggressive). This is based on a whole shitload of takarazuka history, yuri tropes, and historical treatment of homosexuality between women in Japan that someone posted on another forum. It was fantastic. I'm going to try to get permission to copy it here because it made me think more about the meaning behind what was going on.

I was chewing over the other day about the portrayal of sex negativity in Utena (and in Penguindrum to a degree) as opposed to the more sex positive attitude that some parts of third wave feminism have in the west, and wondered whether sex negativity is just more relevant to Japan and anime tropes . Ikuni's works are definitely for a Japanese audience who would understand the tropes he deconstructs all too well, maybe he feels his approach to feminist themes is more relevant to Japan. I'm curious how tumblr would react if sex negative feminist themes were brought up in a western show - would it be denounced as "out-of-date"?
Or maybe I'm just talking out my arse - I'm sure there's food for thought there somewhere and I could probably do with a re-watch of that episode. (I feel that this will have to be a discussion I spend more than 20 minutes expanding upon - it's in there somewhere)

THIS side to YKA keeps me captivated. It's like every creation Ikuni makes is further expansion of the same themes and concepts and I definitely feel that giving time and chance to watch all his works helps you to understand his ideas better.
Rethinking over Penguindrum my brow softened, as the ending of Penguindrum helped me to understand the ending of Utena better. So I absolutely will give YKA a chance, if it will help me to love Utena more. But as the final episode looms, no way will it be safe from the same brutal standards and critique I use to gauge the quality of a show.

Last edited by Tardigrade (01-17-2015 02:29:53 PM)

Yasha wrote:

Gio and I have decided that you become a bear when your love becomes impure (sexually aggressive). This is based on a whole shitload of takarazuka history, yuri tropes, and historical treatment of homosexuality between women in Japan that someone posted on another forum. It was fantastic. I'm going to try to get permission to copy it here because it made me think more about the meaning behind what was going on.

Although, when it comes to characterization, son, I am disappoint.

You know, Yasha, actually I am writing a theatral piece in which, once your love is impure, you become a VAMPIRE, in the sense of "energetic vampire", this concept, where you feel the need to steal love and attention in general with certain habits toward the people. Is my first and I'm thinking really hard on it,  I wasn't inspired by Yuri Kuma Arashi, since I began thinking of it before Yuri Kuma aired, but I am inspired from Ikuhara, indeed. I'm at the beginning, let's see how it will turn out!

And, I ACTUALLY THOUGHT A VERY SIMILAR THING, not from your studies, but from what I consider love and relationships with people in general, and so, yes, love can be and VERY OFTEN IS aggressive, sexually, of course, but also in general, when you feel possessive: that love becomes EATING the energy of the other person. That love, is no more love, but the need to take it, with the inability to give it yourself.
You become unable to give love, but you crave for it.

I will write more on Yuri Kuma later.

And, sorry for my horrible english, I hope the mistakes I made doesn't interfere with the undertanding of what I said...

Last edited by SeizonSenryaku (01-18-2015 06:53:51 PM)

Tardigrade wrote:

I'm curious how tumblr would react if sex negative feminist themes were brought up in a western show - would it be denounced as "out-of-date"?

I don't wander on Tumblr much but I do wonder about this! SKU was rather sex negative for both genders, really. This show clearly has a similar focus, but I'm wondering if there's going to be a shift toward a more positive outlook as the show develops. Taken at face value it wouldn't appear so, but even Ikuni at his worst (which I'm not saying this is) tends to pull the rug out from under the viewer later, so I'm expecting a very different message over time.

Arale wrote:

Honestly I'm a little bothered by the sexual interpretations of this show. Or at least, the ones that imply that the show is morally bad, citing the bears' eating people as undeniable sexual assault, somehow. But... like, I can get why you could get a double meaning out of western slang for "eat", maybe, but in terms of what actually happens in the show, the bears are killing humans and devouring them for sustenance. I don't see anything sexual about that. But I've seen some posts on Tumblr and such, claiming that the scenes such as Ginko climbing up to Kureha/licking her are trivialized sexual assault, or something. I know I would never support anything that has that kind of thing, and I'm not seeing the show like that at all. But I still feel kind of bad for liking it, because of this.

Just hoping Ikuhara's "true message" or whatever the hell he does proves them wrong, I guess - or shows that he was aware of their thoughts the whole time, maybe. In any case, Mitsuko's actions towards Kureha are certainly supposed to be creepy and bad, sexual or otherwise. So it may partially be these people not understanding that their reactions are the more "correct" ones to have, and blaming the creators for this, assuming the show to only work on one meaning/interpretation.

If any of that made any sense.

What if licking the flower out of Kureha's chest simbolyzes, instead of sexual assault, a.....feeding off something emotional? I don't know how to explain better this, but, maybe it does to do with LOVE...after all Ginko said that she LOVES HER, and the flower bulb comes out of the chest, where there is THE HEART.. if any of that made any sense!

Last edited by SeizonSenryaku (01-18-2015 06:51:36 PM)

Yasha wrote:

Gio and I have decided that you become a bear when your love becomes impure (sexually aggressive). This is based on a whole shitload of takarazuka history, yuri tropes, and historical treatment of homosexuality between women in Japan that someone posted on another forum. It was fantastic. I'm going to try to get permission to copy it here because it made me think more about the meaning behind what was going on.

Tardigrade wrote:

I was chewing over the other day about the portrayal of sex negativity in Utena (and in Penguindrum to a degree) as opposed to the more sex positive attitude that some parts of third wave feminism have in the west, and wondered whether sex negativity is just more relevant to Japan and anime tropes . Ikuni's works are definitely for a Japanese audience who would understand the tropes he deconstructs all too well, maybe he feels his approach to feminist themes is more relevant to Japan. I'm curious how tumblr would react if sex negative feminist themes were brought up in a western show - would it be denounced as "out-of-date"?
Or maybe I'm just talking out my arse - I'm sure there's food for thought there somewhere and I could probably do with a re-watch of that episode. (I feel that this will have to be a discussion I spend more than 20 minutes expanding upon - it's in there somewhere)

This is exactly why I need that post I read, because it explains so much better than I can about the two different tropes that Ikuhara is playing on, and how this is potentially a criticism of both of these tropes.

Okay, guys, for the edification of this thread I'm going to out myself on Something Awful. Wish me luck

SeizonSenryaku wrote:

And, I ACTUALLY THOUGHT A VERY SIMILAR THING, not from your studies, but from what I consider love and relationships with people in general, and so, yes, love can be and VERY OFTEN IS aggressive, sexually, of course, but also in general, when you feel possessive: that love becomes EATING the energy of the other person. That love, is no more love, but the need to take it, with the inability to give it yourself.
You become unable to give love, but you crave for it.

Off-topic Utena babble...

This is actually how I always saw Juri's love for Shiori. A love that demanded something from her, whether that was acknowledgment or sexual gratification or whatever else. It's also the reason I've never been able to see Utena saying her love for Anthy was pure as denial-- it is pure, by virtue of the fact that she's not demanding anything from Anthy.

I think this is a theme Ikuhara has been trying to wrestle with for a while. I agree with him in essence, but so far he hasn't done it justice.

Arale wrote:

Honestly I'm a little bothered by the sexual interpretations of this show. Or at least, the ones that imply that the show is morally bad, citing the bears' eating people as undeniable sexual assault, somehow. But... like, I can get why you could get a double meaning out of western slang for "eat", maybe, but in terms of what actually happens in the show, the bears are killing humans and devouring them for sustenance. I don't see anything sexual about that. But I've seen some posts on Tumblr and such, claiming that the scenes such as Ginko climbing up to Kureha/licking her are trivialized sexual assault, or something. I know I would never support anything that has that kind of thing, and I'm not seeing the show like that at all. But I still feel kind of bad for liking it, because of this.

Ignore tumblr. The collective application of feminism and psychology regarding abuses both sexual and otherwise is simplified in the extreme. That's not to say that there aren't some really good ideas on tumblr, but you'll find they're often outscreamed by the crowd that thinks that just the act of politely expressing romantic interest is sexual assault.

Once you remove that component, it becomes a bit easier to pick apart any sexual parallels present. And I think that might be what Ikuhara's going for here-- trying to get you to see how both the bears and the school represent harmful ways of dealing with lesbian sexuality that should be corrected.

One thing that I think really points to the bear mauling being sexual in nature is that the bears eating girls is judged by a panel of male gatekeepers who allow it based on whether it is beautiful, cool, and ultimately sexy. You know, like yuri.

I just hope Ikuhara realizes that he is one of those guys whether he wants to be or not.

In any case, the show isn't morally bad. Anyone saying it is probably doesn't have a good grasp on anything but surface reading anyway, which is a terrible person to have watching Ikuhara anime.

So, I surely can't be the only one totally unsurprised to find that Lulu and Ginko are, in fact, benevolent characters who only eat conformity-enforcing Invisible Storm oppressors. They were going to form a mutual connection with Kureha eventually, the OP and ED sequences made that plain. I'm just pleased it's heading in that direction this soon.

Some things to point out:

http://i.imgur.com/3xsnh38.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3asY6fG.jpg
The lilies, which represent honest and passionate love, are set opposite the image of the bird, which represents the Invisible Storm faction that enforce conformity and groupthink under the auspices of "friendship".

http://i.imgur.com/u3gKlqX.jpg
The teacher wears the insignia on her lapel.

http://i.imgur.com/JVIgap5.jpg
Again the iconographic opposition, on her office wall.

http://i.imgur.com/RbCmhGB.jpg
During the Ritual of Exclusion, the birds become completely dominant, eliminating the lilies altogether.

http://i.imgur.com/DwlJTYA.jpg
Birds.

http://i.imgur.com/6gquSoQ.jpg
This is a recurring shot, the spiral staircase. Every time, the birds are shown moving in the opposite direction of the characters. Not coincidentally, the people on the staircase are always either bears or Kureha, both being characters who stand against the Invisible Storm.

http://i.imgur.com/FWnfxuX.jpg
As should be obvious by now, the nature of bears is to be true to your instincts, to seek pleasure and personal happiness regardless of societal censure. However, it's worth pointing out that some bears (i.e. passionate nonconformists) are adept at hiding their true natures. Both Mitsuko and Konomi were bears and neither were suspected of going against the Invisible Storm's order.

http://i.imgur.com/ZkLLjpv.jpg
Behold your champions of love and protectors of Kureha. Gau gau.

Edit: What happened to my "Eternal Castellan" title? I liked that one.

Last edited by Aelanie (01-20-2015 02:53:20 AM)

Just watching the opening of episode three and Escher popped into my head. Especially when it pans to the top & there's only one bird in more detail, very Escher-esque. Love it.

EDIT: Stars!




EDITEDIT: What's the music that plays during the henshin scene? It's some classical piece or something but I'm sure I've heard it before.

Last edited by YamPuff (01-20-2015 08:26:17 AM)