This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#76 | Back to Top09-16-2013 04:36:23 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
Website

Re: It looks like this is my lucky day! I'll take "The Rapists" for $200.

gorgeousshutin wrote:

But supposing Akio really is that childlike in mind, then couldn't it be argued that Akio is a victim of (repeated) sexual advantage-taking from both Kanae and Mrs. Ohtori?  These women both do blatantly coerce him for sex while putting themselves in a position of power over him (Kanae stressing her family spending huge sums on him, while her mom flat out states that he's nothing without the Ohtori Clan) . . .

You could certainly argue that if you take the Akio as a child approach to things. emot-smile

Truly, the degree to which I took it in my last post was kind of a thought experiment. I don't actually think Akio is mentally a child. Psychologically? Yes, but, that's considering I also think a significant number of adults I meet day to day are similarly arrested in this way. Akio is a child in the sense that he still has a completely egocentric view of the world, and though experience and intuition have taught him how to read people, he's incapable of truly assuming another point of view. Again, plenty of completely functional adults day to day are the same way. I think that's one of the fascinating things about this character--that a lot of the characteristics that put in such stark relief are so unsettling are things that are fairly common personality traits and behavioral patterns in adults everywhere. His mentality and his approach to life? Nothing special. It's not the product of centuries (other things are), it's not a demigod's unique outlook on the universe. Akio is a child that never grew up in the same sense of many adults who, in their adulthood, haven't gained a scrap of real maturity, but live and die in the same way the rest of the populace does.

What Utena does is not, to my mind, something everyone has to do to get to adulthood. She grows up. And she's one of a smaller number of people who break this shell. The story doesn't say that each of us has to overcome this awesome hurdle to advance to where we can drive, have sex, and acquire power. It says that you have to overcome that hurdle to grow up. And that growing up is its own reward. Utena is the alternative to the easier option, and both exist in fully functioning adults. It's really a question of how cynical you are which of them represents a larger portion of the population at large, but both are there, plentiful, and not always obvious on first glance.

That's what I mean when I say Akio's a child. I'm certainly not suggesting that if you dumped him in the middle of New York City he would fall apart because he doesn't know how to survive among adults. If anything, he'd be just as effective if not more so in the real world, because there's no shortage of people who are attracted to such large personalities even when they can't deliver. (Or maybe he can ride on the front of a taxi?)

There's plenty about Akio that's unique to his rather odd circumstances. The whole demigod thing and master of his own little universe thing does skew stuff a bit, but I think at the end of the day, Akio's an exaggerated example of a very real personality type. He's selfish, completely absorbed in what he wants, and thinks the world should make way for him. The thing is, like in real life, that often works out for him, because he has the skill to force his will on others. The power he has to force that will is unique, but so are his expectations.

Ash, these days I think you're less alone than you realize. emot-wink Akio doesn't lack for detractors. Although I'm not sure how many supporters he has, because Tumblr sure the hell exploded out of nowhere today.

Also god dammit Saionji and Wakaba probably the only time in my life I've ever shipped anything, but they belong together. etc-saiowank


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#77 | Back to Top09-16-2013 10:43:53 AM

gorgeousshutin
Bare Footman
Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1325
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Re: It looks like this is my lucky day! I'll take "The Rapists" for $200.

Gio wrote:

Akio is a child in the sense that he still has a completely egocentric view of the world, and though experience and intuition have taught him how to read people, he's incapable of truly assuming another point of view. Again, plenty of completely functional adults day to day are the same way.
<Skip>
He's selfish, completely absorbed in what he wants, and thinks the world should make way for him. The thing is, like in real life, that often works out for him, because he has the skill to force his will on others. The power he has to force that will is unique, but so are his expectations.
<Skip>
It's really a question of how cynical you are which of them represents a larger portion of the population at large, but both are there, plentiful, and not always obvious on first glance.

Thank for the detailed post.  I think I finally understand what you mean to say with Akio – that he’s not Peter Pan as in the innocent Disney PP, but rather, a jaded,' spiritually shallow' person who crave power over others with a simple, animalistic hunger.

I would agree with you that both the ‘jaded, power hungry’ type and the ‘spiritually mature’ are both plentiful throughout the world’s population.  The ‘jaded, power hungry’ type appears more prominent because the more skillful of the bunch will always appear at the top in every social/organizational hierarchy by reason of their sheer aggressiveness.  Once there, their sheer functioning mechanism will inflict change upon their parts of the world – driving up taxes, driving up cost of living, setting trends in material must-haves etc – such that others living in those parts will have little choice but to act like them to survive on in their social setting.  Yep, that’s Akio, and the ‘revolution’ he tries inflicting upon the world around himself.

To pimp an old article of mine on a similar topic, see Beyond the Shell – The Outside World "outside" of the World of SKU here.

So the question remains: can a person with such a personality type be raped/taken sexual advantage of?  Sure, Akio is only posing as a 19 yr old while being 1000+, and he offered himself up to the Ohtori Clan for his own selfish purpose . . . but does that mean Mrs. Ohtori and Kanae are completely guiltless in coercing him for sex and attention?

Gio wrote:

What Utena does is not, to my mind, something everyone has to do to get to adulthood. She grows up.

Oh boy, I’m gonna sound like such a downer again . . . but I don’t wanna derail this thread with an effort post on something else, so I’d link into anther thread instead maybe in the future.

Gio wrote:

Also god dammit Saionji and Wakaba probably the only time in my life I've ever shipped anything, but they belong together.

These two have their sweet moments, yes.  But . . .
Wakaba likes Saionji because sheltering the SC VP, even after he got expelled, gives her ‘a touch with greatness’ that makes her feel ‘special’ herself.
Saionji likes Wakaba because she gives him shelter when he needs it.
Their’s a conditional relationship if I’ve ever seen one.


(SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Completed as of May 12, 2018) / (PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 4 as of Oct 31, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#78 | Back to Top09-16-2013 10:50:40 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2791

Re: It looks like this is my lucky day! I'll take "The Rapists" for $200.

I like the Peter Pan thing.

I was rereading Peter and Wendy last spring and he's so dangerous. He kills any Lost Boy that gets too old or, more importantly, too mature to toe the line. When Tink dies, he forgets about her completely, because well, she's not there any more. And he's so locked into the whole Indians fight Lost Boys fight Pirates fight Indians dynamic that when the Lost Boys join the Indian tribe in that Never Land (it is Peter's, it's his special island and everyone has one if they know how to get to it - Wendy's has no people on it, just wolves and her alone and comfortable),some of the Indians have to be persuaded to be the new Lost Boys just so the fighting can continue.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#79 | Back to Top09-16-2013 11:35:35 AM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: It looks like this is my lucky day! I'll take "The Rapists" for $200.

gorgeousshutin wrote:

These two have their sweet moments, yes.  But . . .
Wakaba likes Saionji because sheltering the SC VP, even after he got expelled, gives her ‘a touch with greatness’ that makes her feel ‘special’ herself.
Saionji likes Wakaba because she gives him shelter when he needs it.
Their’s a conditional relationship if I’ve ever seen one.

I got to agree there, although I can see the appeal with those two, I still think they would need a lot of development as well if they were to work out. (Of course, that's part of what makes them interesting too.)

And yes, Peter Pan is pretty nasty. emot-biggrin

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#80 | Back to Top09-25-2013 03:06:17 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 589

Re: It looks like this is my lucky day! I'll take "The Rapists" for $200.

Then again you could take a radically different turn and de-personalize Akio completely. (If anyone has it coming he does). In a sense he is a symbol for The World As It Is. The World As It Is is an awful place for anyone who is idealistic or innocent or weak or naive but is not free from its own delusions and follies.

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