I'm sorry if I stated it in a confusing manner.  That is basically what I was saying about Shiori being cruelly innocent. 

Shiori's ignorance of Juri's true feelings are not the only cause of Juri's pain, but in her ignorance, she takes actions that hurt Juri in ways Shiori doesn't conceive of, for reasons Shiori doesn't imagine.  The real cause is the unrequited nature of Juri's feelings and Juri's own insistence on brooding.

Nor was I implying that hurting Juri was the ONLY reason Shiori goes after these boys.  Nor is it even a major reason, though it may have been a little bit of Shiori's original impetus.  As I said, she is seeking a sense of self-worth, and making herself more miserable.  But she says to herself--see Episode 17--that she hates Juri.  She expresses a desire to hurt Juri, which is what I said.  I did not say that it was her actual desire or motive to hurt Juri.  I don't believe that's the case.  She travels from hostility to self-loathing to attempting to pity and feel superior to Juri.  None of these work because none of them are her true feelings for Juri.

I hope I didn't imply that Shiori thought Juri was in love with Ruka or vice versa.  That wouldn't make any sense.  I simply meant that Shiori was displaying a neurotic, compulsive need to come between Juri and anyone else.  I don't think Shiori changed at all from one boy to the next--and if she was seeking Ruka as a replacement for Juri, that would at least be a different tactic.

In a sense, I am saying she is similar to Nanami's character in several respects.

Furthermore, I have already read your excellent analysis of Episode 29.  And that is why I think Shiori is expressing her innermost self here.  In the sense that Shiori's innermost self is a chaos of longing, jealousy/fear, and self-hatred.  It would perhaps be better for me to say "pure Shiori" or "one of the best expressions of Shiori's character."  Your statements regarding her body language support my point and do not contradict it.  It is everywhere in that scene: She is only opening the door a little, she obscuring herself (behind the door) from Juri, and she is lashing out defensively from the darkness of the solitary room behind her.

When Shiori goes "deeper", she goes from "I hate Juri" to "I'm afraid Juri is only friends with me out of pity. I am pathetic" and then basically freaks out.  Her own feelings that she is pathetic, her own fear of Juri--that's about as far as Shiori has gotten a grip with her own emotions.  And I don't think any of her actions until "Revolution" are motivated by any other feelings--which is what I mean by "lack of progress."

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (04-02-2007 10:46:14 AM)

Oh, I go on and on.  And then throw in asides.  Sometimes I go back and read my posts and I'm not sure what I was trying to say. -_-;

You are probably the preeminent Shiori theologian here and your reading your recent posts on the subject has guided my viewpoints of Shiori.  So I don't want you to misunderstand my opinions because I write in such muddled manner. 

The only part that I continue to wonder about is the last few lines of Shiori's elevator scene. Though it does seem very likely that her reaction could be due to homophobic shock, what makes me think otherwise is that this was the final line in her elevator scene. What she says last is what causes the chrysalis to revert back to an egg.

The other Black Rose Duelists say things that put them other the egg last, such as Kanae, who says, "I've tried so hard to like her! But it's no use! No matter what I try... No matter what I do... IT'S NO USE!" Or Kozue, "But Miki's heart is drifting further and further towards that girl... Further and further from me."

Juri's sexual preference doesn't put Shiori below her, so it seems unlikely that the idea of Juri thinking of her that way would put her over the edge. "It's no use! It's just no use!" This line in particular seems to imply that she's thinking something along the lines of that even though Juri has been thinking of her all this time, she's still not Juri's equal, making her attempt to surpass her seem useless. When she says, "Why do you look at me like that?! Why?!" She's looking down on her locket, which has been casted aside into a corner. More importantly, why has Juri felt about her all this time, but rather than telling her, she just kept her secret locked away inside of that locket, and never told her. Why did she never tell her? Was she ashamed of her feelings for someone as pathetic as herself? If so, she hadn't really won at all.

I also think those last 3 lines are important.  But, as I hopefully expressed above, I don't view her "Poor Juri" line as genuine pity, nor her exclamation, "It's no good!" as being made out homophobia/fear/disgust.  I used to, but the dialouge seemed to be a little disconnected; this new concept connects everything for me.

I really view her as being a person with little to no self-esteem.  We pretty much all agree that she has built some resentment of Juri over the years because of that and the fact that Juri is pretty, smart, talented, well-liked etc.  Shiori just can't compete and living in Juri's shadow makes her feel worse about herself; particularly because she can't understand why someone like Juri would be friends with someone like herself--except out of pity.

(It's interesting that someone so paranoid, with so little self-confidence, never gives us any indication that she wonders if Juri stayed friends with her as a kind of mean trick; that if behind her back, Juri was deriding her.  Shiori doesn't seem to think that, though I think most people like her would entertain that notion--and I think that might be because Shiori truly thinks Juri is the next thing to being perfect--and no nice girl would do that sort of thing.)

Shiori first attempts to regain confidence and acquire a sense of control over her own life by treating Juri with, basically, hostility.  It's kind of a classic scenario--she wants to steal the boy from Juri to prove that she's as good as Juri.  She is seeing herself as a rival, who ends up winning.  But that was no good. 

Shiori isn't as thrilled with the prize as she should be, she didn't want it for herself, she just wanted it because she thought it belonged to Juri.  And Juri was her friend, so that realization and the justifiable guilt just made her feel worse.

When she finds out that Juri's locket holds her picture, she then tries to take another perspective on it--  Shiori held the position of "power" (sense of superiority) all along and Juri has been suffering over love for her (validation), the poor thing (pity).  But that's no good either.

Even as she is saying those words, Shiori finds they aren't helping and they aren't true.  She becomes disgusted with herself again, her feelings of self-loathing resurge; how in the world could Juri look at her as an equal, as someone to love?

And why did it all have to turn out like this?

Interpreting this the way I am, I'm starting to wonder...  If you ask why something has turned out the way it has, you usually have some mental image of a way you'd have preferred it to turn out.  What was the alternative Shiori had in mind? 

To me, remembering Shiori's own disdain for herself, which must be a heavy weight to carry around, I wonder if she isn't thinking:  If I weren't so pathetic, if I hadn't messed up our friendship...

I imagine Shiori would blame herself for the mess of their friendship if she were being "honest" (though the truth is that they are both to blame).  If she's not being "honest", she is pretending that she's tired of Juri acting superior--which is in reality also honest, because it's honestly how Shiori gets through the day.  (And because it's pretty much an involuntary reflex to respond to things that are unfair--like special people who seem to be blessed with every advantage and the best luck--with either despair or anger, and anger tends to make one a little less suicidal.  Better for self-preservation.)

So I have to wonder, after finding out about the locket, what's the "then" to Shiori's "if only"?  It makes a certain amount of sense to think that Shiori is in love with Juri, too--AND may be somewhat homophobic.  It's hard for some people to accept that they are gay or bisexual, particularly if they think the society around them and their loved ones are going to react badly to it.  Maybe that is one of the reasons Shiori dislikes herself so much.

I'm starting to think this because to me it seems like the strength of Shiori's reactions have to be in proportion to the strength of her feelings; and those would be some pretty strong feelings.

Because what else is so different now that Shiori knows Juri's feelings?  Keeping in mind that the recent situation between herself and Juri wasn't acceptable to Shiori--  Now that Shiori knows about the locket, what is the preferable scenario Shiori can now imagine that is sending her into paroxysms, asking "why is it like this" instead of...

I can see Shiori as someone who may be struggling with her sexuality. If she's already thinking of herself in such low regards, then thinking of girls in a way that is considered to be, "wrong," could succeed in making her feel even worse about herself. An ironic situation would be if Shiori were wondering how Juri would react if she knew that she felt that way.

If Shiori really does see Ruka as a replacement for Juri, then perhaps part of the reason why she was so comfortable going with him was because not only could she relate him to Juri, but her feelings for him wouldn't be wrong. Ruka's a guy, so she wouldn't have any reason to feel ashamed or guilty by thinking of him that way.

*Sexual orientation issues do not change things much.*
really? I think that homosexual relationships are more fragile and more complicated that straight. I can also see how it looks in my friends’ relationships.

*You could say Shiori has sub-consciously tried to hurt Juri then, but I think only those two times. The first time, she thought she really loved the nameless boy, but then later along the line she realized she only wanted to steal him from Juri to put them on equal ground.*

maybe she wanted to make her envious and advance her?

*If Shiori really does see Ruka as a replacement for Juri, then perhaps part of the reason why she was so comfortable going with him was because not only could she relate him to Juri, but her feelings for him wouldn't be wrong. Ruka's a guy, so she wouldn't have any reason to feel ashamed or guilty by thinking of him that way.*

It’s good explanation, I suppose. Maybe she escaped from her own feelings towards Juri into Ruka’s arms.

dlaire wrote:

brian wrote:

Sexual orientation issues do not change things much.

really? I think that homosexual relationships are more fragile and more complicated that straight. I can also see how it looks in my friends’ relationships.

That may be true in the real world but in the context of Utena it is useful to play a thought experiment. Imagine that Juri is male and both of them unambiguously heterosexual. It would still be a messy and tormented relationship.

You are absolutely right and that is undoubtedly a big part of why everyone likes anime Juri better than manga Juri.

If you want to understand some elements of the series better, then yes. If you are a big fan of Juri, Kozue, or Saionji, no. Or, Shiori/Nanami/Keiko/Mitsuru/Kanae, seeing how they remain nonexistent.

The two mangas are very good for understanding the psychology and metaphisics of Utena, Anthy, Akio, and Dios. Wakaba and Touga are also well-served in the mangas. The mangas both have beginnings, middles, and ends that are somewhat easier to understand than the anime and movie. They are both very worthwhile although I must admit that it is much more fun to watch anime Juri suffer than her manga counterpart.

Certainly Shiori was clingy and needy toward Ruka, but there's no evidence that I can see against her just wanting to do him. People do want that from time to time you know.

But the thought that she might not have fully discovered her sexuality yet is a fair one. After all, it's quite normal for women to be ambiguous about their sexuality throughout their teens, and even into their twenties. One of my psych friends called it "sexual plasticity" I think...or maybe it was elasticity?

Nevertheless, her own sexuality aside, I find Shiori's elevator scene to be a sign of her own homophobia. She might be upset about losing her friend as you say, but I don't see how that could account for the outright horror in her face.

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

brian, I gotta say, though, while I don't agree that homosexual relationships are by nature more "fragile and more complicated that straight," I don't think the triangle would work the way it does if Juri was a guy, or Ruka a woman, even.  I don't find the series as abstracted as you appear to.  I do think gender comes into it, especially when you think about Shiori's more vicious moments as moments of comfort, of control and perhaps the only sort of knowing she's allowed to have, or capable of.  In any case, abandonment from person of Gender X to that same gender is often going to have a different effect than abandonment from Gender X to Gender Y, in both personal and social terms.  And this is a social case, inasmuch as there are very few private or kept secrets on that campus and the characters understand and expect that.

Shiori knows people talk.  Juri damn well knows it.  And you can see it in their actions.

I said that before, not brian I think that triangle isn't good idea no matters who is involved, but well, what I've said sounds really awkard. I just wanted to say that Juri didn't confess her love before Shiori because it was 'forbidden love', and if she was a boy, problem wouldn't even appear. It's just my speculation, but I think she's a good example of fear before coming-out.

Oh I didn't mean to suggest that there was any kind of deep emotional connection between Shiori and Ruka. I mean, he was obviously using her for some ulterior motive or other (separate debate there), and it's safe to say that she never noticed because she wasn't watching closely. I just meant that I see no reason to think that Shiori was reluctant to sleep with him.