I do think it's possible, though I still am not sure it's any more sinister than ...  Miki emotionally abandoning his sister, distancing himself.  Their relationship has to change, yeah, but he's doing it badly because he's immature and selfish (like everyone his age).  So he "stabs her in the back"; after all, she calls him a traitor.  There's nothing gentle about feeling betrayed, which is (I think) the feeling that inspired her transformation. 

But (a) all the dead and dead-ish people around and (b) the repeating relationships, which echo each other (Anthy & Akio) mean he could have severely hurt her.  I don't think she was literally murdered.  As in, she's probably not permenantly dead (more like Anthy than Touga).  But there's just not enough for me to be sure of that either way...and, hey, what if she killed herself?

It feels weird not to really have a concrete opinion on whether or not Kozue is dead.  I have opinions on pretty much everything else...in the world... O_O

I think choosing cars was probably the next thing to an arbitrary decision.  But the car transformation ends up meaning something, and the car becomes an apt metaphor.  If the transformation had been into a dragon, I probably would have thought it was cooler.  If it had been birds or something, I'd have thought it was more poetic.

Actually, I was doing some thinking about the average student at Ohtori, but I'm not sure it's a fully formed or well-considered theory yet...  Wakaba always pops up to make things more complicated.  She's not really a duellist, even though she is a Black Rose duellist in the anime.  But she's very connected to the duels because of her friendship with Utena throughout the anime.  Her role as token "normal-girl" means I tend to try to transfer her onto the rest of the student body, but maybe that's not exactly the right approach.

In the movie, she really only shows up at the beginning, but the fact that she is the car in which "friendship saves the day" is, I think, directly referential to her character in the series.  I think we basically have to take for granted that she's Utena's friend.  And she's probably fairly close to being like the average student at Ohtori.

There's the angle in which the problem with Ohtori isn't Ohtori itself, physically, but what Ohtori represents due to (as brian put it) Utena and Anthy's emotional baggage.  So Wakaba would transform out of concern for Utena, her friend.  She might want to help out Utena as much as Utena wants to help Anthy.

There's the angle I was implying in my previous post.  Once the "race" begins, it's like armageddon for Ohtori, and everyone chooses a side.  Your average student at Ohtori would be unaware of Ohtori's true nature, or why they were there.  They are there, in a way, because they weren't ready to let go of something in their past and/or grow up.  Ohtori, as it is, is a place of safety from the challenges of wide world outside.  Most of the students don't want to see that reality, take responsibility for their lives, and let go of their own baggage.  Utena and Anthy represent a threat to the safety of their ignorance; they mostly join the horde (which could be why it ends up being so large and is where the "hive mind" comes in).  But this only happens because it's such a huge event in Ohtori-history.  Desperate times, etc.  Without the extraordinary circumstances, they wouldn't have been pushed to the extremety of a transformation. 

Also, we know that in the anime the students are basically a hero-worshipping, faceless mob with a hostility toward the Rose Bride.  Ikuhara may be taking a "people suck, but there are some individual persons who don't" sort of attitude toward the student body.  Ohtori continues to exist in both versions.  In the anime things seem to have changed for the better--slightly--personally, for our main characters.  In the movie, we just know Ohtori is still there.  But I can guess that most of the students are happy in ignorance, in being zombies, in living as they are told.  Sheep, etc.  But I think there is a threat to them, in that they probably feared change.  They feared being exposed to the outside world.

Wakaba is one of the exceptions and she becomes the Jeep--again, because she's Utena's friend.  She's not a duellist, but she's sort of on their "side."  I think Wakaba will end up leaving Ohtori too.  Maybe not quickly, maybe not as dramatically--but she's not going to remain stuck, either.  Anthy and Utena have forged a path for anyone that wants to go too.  But there's not any hurry--the other duellists aren't in a huge hurry either.  They intend to follow, but they don't do so immediately.

The Black Rose is not an unsuitable comparison to the horde.  I know Blade feels strongly about the mind-control in the Black Rose saga, but they only go to Nemuro because they want to.  The elevator ride is a ride into their own subconscious minds.  They do seem to be under some degree of control, but they open the door to that control willingly.  I could go further into the psychology of that, but basically they are being manipulated based on feelings that they already had inside them.  The manipulation is closer to total mind control than for the Student Council duellists...in part because the Black Rose duellists aren't ready to be real, conscious duellists.  But their repressed feelings are powerful.  The students all had repressed feelings--fears, etc. that could be used.

Actually, in a way, I misstated that comparison between the anime and the move.  They are motivated by a desire change in both versions, they're just more attached to their pasts in the anime and almost seem to want to go back rather than forward.  But in the movie, they seem to be more aware that forward is the only direction and want to do that from the start (it's shorter).  In both, they are intially wrong about what it will take to accomplish that.  For example, in the anime, it slowly becomes obvious that they want revolution without work--they want a shortcut, some power to suddenly free them to act differently, when in reality all that constrains them is inside them.  Which is the revolution of Utena...helping people to realize that, inspiring them to progress.  The young always want to destroy the world because they think it's the world that's wrong.  Maybe it is, but you don't have to play by those rules.  Change yourself and you change the world.  When other people see you doing it, they can be inspired to do the same thing.  Everyone lives more fulfilling lives.  Yay!

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (02-06-2007 09:16:10 AM)

I'm not sure if I remember this correctly, and I could very easily be wrong, since I lost the DVD somewhere in my room, but...

In the bathtub scene, when the water and ducky splished out of the tub, wasn't there a bit of blood mixed in the water? I'm not sure if that's relevant or not, but... could it be taken into consideration if my memory is correct? Or is that inconsequential?

brian wrote:

It's water catching the lurid red light of the garage so it is not literally blood but it is symbolically.

Well, yes, I know that, but the actual BATHTUB scene, where Kozue actually has the straightrazor in her hand. I could have sworn I saw some blood mixed in the water.

Hmm, I did, and there was no blood. My memory must be super-faulty. T_T

Here are a couple more suggestions about the car-horde.

Maybe they are all Shiori. They mostly look the same as her. After she crashes her will simply does not give up but become stronger and multiplies.

Maybe they are Akio, simple manifestations of his will.

Maybe Anthy creates them out of her own fear.

Maybe they are the Swords of Human Hatred. In the anime they also are mindless and swarm-like. And they are both chasing Himemiya.

As if this whole mess wasn't complicated enough already, I have another theory about the cars. It probably won't hold up under close scrutiny, as a lot of it is gut feeling and pure guesswork. But here goes all the same.

I've always thought of the black cars as lost souls, in a way. They're people who've failed to let go of their pasts and are doomed to stay in Ohtori forever as mindless drones. Don't ask me what gave me that idea, it's just the first thing that came to mind. I don't think tbe students in movie Ohtori have a lot of influence on if and when they'll be turned into a car. There can only be two outcomes for anyone trapped in movie Ohtori. Either they decide to head for the outside world, in which case they'll be turned into a car while maintaining their individuality and are given a chance to leave Ohtori, albeit against high odds. This is what I believe happened to Utena; the pink car is clearly an 'individual' car (i.e. she didn't lose her soul or her free will after turning into a car). As an aside, it may be required to forge a strong bond of selfless friendship (as Utena and Anthy did) with someone in order for a 'good' car transformation like this to take place.
The other outcome is that students who keep clinging to their pasts or childhoods eventually pass a point of no return. At that moment, they'll be completely trapped in the world of Ohtori and turn into a black car. While not exactly dead, I believe these people have no more will of their own. All they do is mindlessly chase people who try to escape to the outside world (crashing during such a chase means actual, physical death) and stay dormant in the garage for the rest of the time.

I think Kozue suffered the latter outcome. She couldn't bring herself to let go of her childhood. The mere suggestion by Miki that they 'can't go back to the sunlit garden' (quite reasonable of him, in fact, stating that she'll still be dear to him all the same) is met with violent outrage on her part. At that point, she had probably already lost her chance to escape from Ohtori, and the transformation into a black car happened shortly afterwards. Miki does treat this very coolly. Maybe he and the other duellists knew about the car transformations all along and he was trying to talk some sense into Kozue during the bathtub scene. Now that she's become a black car, his unspoken attitude towards it seems to be 'I told you so'.

Now, how does Shiori fit into all this? She becomes a black car but definitely does maintain her individuality (the Shiori car even talks). There are two ways to explain this;
A) She has 'passed the point of no return' but still had some exceptionally strong malice in her. Because of that, she became a sort of extra-evil black car which maintained all the negative aspects of her personality (As well as some of her dress sense. Lace on a steering wheel has to be a sign of utmost evil).
B) She made a conscious decision to go to the outside world, but for all the wrong reasons. She says only she should be allowed to do something as 'nifty' as heading outside. She wants to leave Ohtori purely to spite Anthy and Utena, it's not about growing up or overcoming the past for her. So she ended up as something halfway between a black car and an 'individual' car. In the end, she fails and crashes because her turning into a car was motivated by petty reasons (like the duels in the TV series, where those who duel for selfish reasons always end up losing).

I'm not going to touch the Wakaba-jeep just now, as this post is far too long already and I feel dead tired. Given some thought, it could probably fit the theory, though.

Mai_Kanzaki wrote:

Maybe she lacks the proper inspiration (the key) to leave or she's stuck between a rock and a hard place, this world breaks her heart but the outside world frightens her.

You just made me think (oh noes!!); maybe cars turn black when they don't have 'keys'? Wakaba and Utena both had riders and their own colors, perhaps they had their own keys?

Mai_Kanzaki wrote:

YamPuff wrote:

You just made me think (oh noes!!); maybe cars turn black when they don't have 'keys'? Wakaba and Utena both had riders and their own colors, perhaps they had their own keys?

Like when it's not saved from rusting out? Anthy had Utena's key (was it just me or was it originally her duelist signet?) but what about Wakaba? She seems to be busting all the theories. I think there might be more to the "normal" girl than meets the eye.
Also maybe the fact that they're carrying people might be important too.
*snirk snirk* Can't you just picture it? Adolescence Apocalypse: Drivers Wanted

Yes; the two cars with colors had one thing in common that we know for sure: they both had riders. Maybe it also goes that they both had keys. It seems you can turn to a car at will (Shiori says something along the lines of 'you think you're the only one who can become a car').

Maybe, for whatever reason, Kozue turned into a car but Miki didn't want to ride her. (Bad choice of words!! )

I like my analysis short and sweet.

Mai_Kanzaki wrote:

YamPuff wrote:

Maybe, for whatever reason, Kozue turned into a car but Miki didn't want to ride her. (Bad choice of words!! )

Like, maybe she was ready to go but he wasn't?

Exactly. He didn't want to turn her on...

yeah, I'm out of puns.

brian wrote:

Maybe they are the Swords of Human Hatred. In the anime they also are mindless and swarm-like. And they are both chasing Himemiya.

That's what I think is most likely...I don't think they're meant to be the student body. I think they're meant to be more of a generic, faceless bunch...like the swords of hatred. The whole "world" is jealous and fearful of Anthy's escape.

um...thanks! This is a great thread.

What is the last appearance of Kozue in the anime ?

Leeg wrote:

VictorVVV wrote:

What is the last appearance of Kozue in the anime ?

Episode 37- while juri, utena and miki are playing with the racquets.

http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/15706-1/Series_ep37_143.jpg

Ok thanks, I must rewatch.

incredible thread! so much food for thought.. wish I'd seen it before I posted my own ;

I agree with the theory that Miki & Kozue's confrontation scene is like a negative version of Utena & Anthy's confrontation in the Rose Garden, and foreshadows it

After Kozue threatens Miki, and Miki tells her they can't return to childhood.. well.. I think once Kozue learns that Miki isn't going to be forced, even at knife-point, back into her world, she loses her will to fight and like someone else said "fails Ohtori". yknow how they're always talking about cracking your eggshell in the anime, or else you'll die without truly being born.. I think that is what happened to Kozue. she has to start over.

people don't seem to be too aware of what happens to the dead in movie!Ohtori..
Utena's parents "went away" according to her, she never says they died
neither Utena or Shiori seemed to realize that Touga was dead until the end
Anthy was the only person in that world that seemed to be able to see/be aware of the living and the dead..

at the beginning of the movie, Utena finds a rose signet within a white rose (surrounded by red roses) at Akio's grave, right?

so Akio's suicide must have taken place before the movie began.. for all we know, what happened between Miki and Kozue happened before the movie began too, and perhaps Miki had even forgotten that Kozue existed, after all she seems to have just been removed from the world, with only a car and a rubber ducky left behind

I hope this makes some sense

Last edited by artemis88 (06-07-2011 12:38:08 AM)