Kind of interesting, isn't it?  I think it goes to show how much they are both wrapped up in each other.  Juri may be the one that agonizes over Shiori due to unrequited love, and Shiori may feel a lot of jealousy & hostility for Juri, but ultimately the other's opinion is so important to each of them that they can't simply drop the friendship because of the unhealthy status quo.  Neither one of them can imagine a world without the other, as Razara(? right? don't wanna go back & check) said so eloquently.

Like my best friend once said to me, "I was afraid to talk to you about it.  If you... the person who knows me best in the world... decide that I'm not a good person -- well, then, that's it -- I'm not."

I agree with you in that aspect, dabouse. I really don't think Shiori knew. Nor do I think that she should have known because she FLIPPED in the black rose arc. Flat out flipped, and I don't think it would have been much of a different reaction had she been younger and had Juri confessed. It was smart for Juri to keep it from her, it was not smart, as you say, for her to have become bottled up and cold.

As Shiori herself mentions: Shiori: She always protected me.
Shiori: Juri-san was my only friend...
Shiori: Juri-san is the only one I can trust wholeheartedly.

Man, if any friend I felt that strongly about started to get cold on me I'd get broken. Torn, broken, distraught, angry, I'd feel insignificant and any other bad thing you could name. And no one would be able to convince me otherwise because my best friend in the whole wide world had slowly shattered any sense of confidence I might have ever obtained. I'd do exactly what she did: I'd steal boyfriends, become cruel, anything to justify that best friend suddenly becoming harsh towards me. I can't even begin to describe how messed up that would make me feel on the inside. I don't know if I consider Shiori in love with Juri romantically, but I DO know without a doubt that she loved her and probably still does as the closest friend she ever had and ever will have. Well, the Juri of the past, at least, and hopefully the Juri of the future.

But that's not really what I'm here for. I'm here to point out really far-fetched symbolism on my part, but I want to see what everyone thinks about it. I could be completely nuts here, and it really does seem too good to be true, so feel free to bash me down immediately.

Recognize these girls? I should hope so, they pop up everywhere when Utena and Wakaba are doing or saying anything that could remotely hint at being a lesbian couple.


They tease Wakaba in the beginning about how her "boyfriend" had left without her. They're then seen later in that episode snickering as Wakaba nearly shoves Utena out the window. And again in that episode when Wakaba and Utena are rolling down the grass. They turn to look at each other and laugh. Now, here's where it gets far-fetched. Someone with a better mind for this kind of stuff should correct me here, but they seem a lot like the campus lesbians. And if they aren't, they at LEAST symbolize really good friendship and always being together.

Now, what does this all have to do with Shiori? Every fan of episode 17 (omg me) knows that she looked down at the grass to see two girls talking and laughing. They seem to have a pretty darn good similarity to the previous mentioned "Ohtori pair". The haircolor of the one seems a touch off to me, but they're drawn SO tiny that it's not exactly easy to tell. Not to mention, we all know how sketchy SKU's animation can be at times.



Is there a resemblance there to you, too? Or has my crazy necessity for cannon shipping taken my brain again? If there is, I really want to argue the fact that they at least symbolize that deep, deep relationship between two people. And if we're going for hard core (since this is a "Does Shiori love Juri thread" ) I'd say it's symbolism to say that yes, Shiori is romantically head over heels for Juri and may not even know it.

You may all laugh at the silliness of that whole rant now.

Edit for EPIC FAIL Okay, so I went back and rewatched episode one since there weren't any screencaps of every single time and it turns out they are different girls from the very first, and they're probably different ones every time JUST to burst my bubble, but I can't actually find every scene with them that I remember. I was wondering why no one had mentioned it before and now I know.

Last edited by Kaelyndra (07-21-2008 09:22:18 PM)

Yeah, I think it's noteworthy even if they're not the same two girls over and over--for similar reasons.  If they're not lesbians, per se, they are at least friends that are happily spending time together.

I think Shiori did love Juri back, but also felt that Juri liked her out of pity. I felt like she denied that someone as popular and talented like Jury could ever want to be acquainted with someone ordinary like her. So in turn, she started to question that normal friendship they once may have shared and turned neurotic, wanting to try everything to stoop up to Juri's level. Of course, Juri never expressed the fact that she genuinely cared about Shiori, so that is what led Shiori to think that Juri just felt bad for someone "pathetic" like her. She had her way with two different guys, all to get Juri's attention. She was not sure how else to get Juri's attention, so she resorted to stooping down to that level. Even she herself admits that she was being pathetic and felt worse after seducing a guy who she "didn't want for herself," meaning she never did really love that dude but just did it to grab Juri's attention. I feel that she would have gone in between any relationship Juri had, whether it be a guy or girl. Even if Juri were to be real close to a female friend, she may have done something to get between em. Note that in the Confession scene, she looks into the mirror. Looking into the mirror makes her realize that whatever she is doing isn't making her feel good. Also, she knows that "she's already won" over Juri before opening the locket. That means she was already aware that Juri had romantic feelings for her, but became real confused since Juri wouldn't talk about it. So it's horrible communication that made the both of them more than uncomfortable. When she throws the locket and yells, "why do you look at me like that," she seems to be disappointed in HERSELF. The locket still has her pic inside of it, and her own face is looking in her direction. She's more or less feeling real pathetic for doing stuff to herself and Juri, and regrets things for letting them "turn out this way," yet somehow doesn't want to admit defeat. She still wants to win over Juri. I also felt like she wanted to be "equal" because she wanted to match up to Juri to show that even someone like her could be as great... Or possibly she wanted to be worthy of Juri. But all on all, this relationship is very angsty and sadistic due to poor communication. Had Juri been a more outgoing person rather than an introvert, this probably would have never happened, and Shiori wouldn't feel the need to feel inferior to her. "I care about you regardless of who you are" is all that Juri needs to say haha. But Juri isn't exactly someone to express warm feelings. Whether the feelings are of romantic love or not, Shiori does in a way care about Juri. Her apology from Episode 17 is very genuinely expressed. But it's Juri again who fails to speak. This is a strange relationship in which a simple conversation would fix everything, but both of these dolts are incapable of such, possibly due to their twisted personalities. Also Shiori doesn't know HOW to think about her feelings because she and Juri are both women. But it seems like after the "Revolution," Juri resolved her conflicts with Shiori and ended up getting along after all.

P.S. In episode 28, Shiori and this girl have a conversation after leaving the classroom Jury was in. The girl asks, "Isn't Arisugawa san kinda scary?" And Shiori replies, "Is she?" Meaning that Shiori does know that Juri is not as intimidating as people assume her to be.

Last edited by ShiningSanctum1 (04-12-2016 09:40:40 PM)

How can anyone doubt Shiori loves Juri? She's a weird, insecure kid who doesn't know how to handle that, but attraction? There's definitely attraction. Care? I believe so. Hope, fantasizing, obsession, eagerness, yearnings? Yep.

She just doesn't know how to deal with it, so she chooses very, very bad ways and then digs herself deeper and deeper and deeper. Because Shiori is committed.

Juri seems to thrive on that friction, anyway, so maybe it's all just Shiori's loving present to free and reward her. (Uh huh.)

ShiningSanctum1 wrote:

Mishi wrote:

Am I the only one who thinks Juri and Shiori ought to have had a more equal relationship?

At first glance, it seems that Shiori had at least one advantage, other than Juri's love, going for her. She seems a lot more social than Juri. Aside from the other Seitokai members, of which she's only really friendly with Miki, you always see Juri alone. And people are afraid of her.

But you often see Shiori walking and chatting with random students. She SEEMS a lot more outgoing and confident than Juri, who always acts restrained. I would think that Shiori would be the one protecting and caring for Juri.

This doesn't really jive with the whole: "Juri is my only friend" line.

That's an interesting point you bring up. Shiori IS a very social person even without men in her life to give her that status, so that proves the point that she genuinely does care about Juri as a real friend than an enemy. It seems to me that she only flirts with guys who are close to Juri because she is jealous of them being too close to Juri. It seems like to me that she's sadistically possessive of Juri

I'm not sure that Shiori is more social than Juri. Juri seems to milk her aloofness for all the attention and admiration it can get her. Look how she dresses up, you know, and plays roles for people. Shiori may seem more social, in the same way Miki's sister might seem so, but they're very much acting out, I think, and the reserved, quiet, serious loner thing could be just as affected for attention and to facilitate social interactions.

I'm surprised nobody has talked about the chairs yet

Episode 29 "Azure Blue Paler than the Sky"

> We start with this image:





Shiori is the chair at the top right, while Ruka is the chair at the bottom. Shiori's chair is facing Ruka's, and Ruka's is facing somewhere else. I wonder i wonder where is it facing to?







Yeah pretty simple. So, we got the bizarre love triangle (every time I think of yoou): Shiori at the top right facing Ruka, Ruka at the bottom facing Juri, Juri at the top left facing Shiori. The chairs positions change over the episode.

> This is the positions during the duel:








> Just after the duel:





Both Shiori and RUka are facing Juri, while Juri's chair is facing Shiori.


> After Ruka's death





Ruka's chair dissapears, Juri's chair is facing whre Ruka's chair used to be, and Shiori's chair is facing Juri's. Which, pretty much, explains the last image where Juri is reading in her mind a letter for Ruka, while Shiori runs after her.





So yeah to me it's pretty obvious the situation changed after the duel: Shiori is now interested in Juri, while Juri might not be necessarily interested in her (not in Ruka either, since his chair is gone, but simply away from Shiori). Could this be the entire sacrifice thing they were all talking about, *actual* living sacrifice? Who knows but well, we see both Juri's and Shiori's feelings completely change after the duel.

Last edited by pesimistamente (04-22-2016 12:04:54 PM)

satyreyes wrote:

It seems worth asking whether the chairs' directions really denote romantic attraction instead of something else.

Well, we know for sure Juri has a romantic interest in Shiori, just as Shiori has on Ruka and Ruka on Juri. It's a safe assumption to make, but whatever the exact nature of their feelings after the duel, the focus of interest surely changes for both characters. If we were to assume it's romantic interest what Shiori feels for Juri at the end of the episode, how could that be possible? Only with a miracle. WINK.

pesimistamente wrote:

I'm surprised nobody has talked about the chairs yet

Episode 29 "Azure Blue Paler than the Sky"

> We start with this image:

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Se … 1380822398

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Se … 1380822398

Shiori is the chair at the top right, while Ruka is the chair at the bottom. Shiori's chair is facing Ruka's, and Ruka's is facing somewhere else. I wonder i wonder where is it facing to?

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Se … 1380822612

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Se … 1380822613

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Se … 1380822622

Yeah pretty simple. So, we got the bizarre love triangle (every time I think of yoou): Shiori at the top right facing Ruka, Ruka at the bottom facing Juri, Juri at the top left facing Shiori. The chairs positions change over the episode.

> This is the positions during the duel:

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Se … 1380822638

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Se … 1380823916

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Se … 1380823917


> Just after the duel:

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Se … 1380823920

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Se … 1380823920

Both Shiori and RUka are facing Juri, while Juri's chair is facing Shiori.


> After Ruka's death

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Se … 1380823921

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Se … 1380823921

Ruka's chair dissapears, Juri's chair is facing whre Ruka's chair used to be, and Shiori's chair is facing Juri's. Which, pretty much, explains the last image where Juri is reading in her mind a letter for Ruka, while Shiori runs after her.

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Se … 1380823922



So yeah to me it's pretty obvious the situation changed after the duel: Shiori is now interested in Juri, while Juri might not be necessarily interested in her (not in Ruka either, since his chair is gone, but simply away from Shiori). Could this be the entire sacrifice thing they were all talking about, *actual* living sacrifice? Who knows but well, we see both Juri's and Shiori's feelings completely change after the duel.

Someone's already talked about this in another thread in the past, actually.

Last edited by ShiningSanctum1 (04-22-2016 12:51:03 PM)

Just noticed another thing about Shiori, it's hinted that she did not really love Ruka or that one guy in honesty. First, she easily dumps that boy from the past and genuinely apologizes to Juri in episode 17. In Episode 17, it is hinted that she has known that Juri was in love with her all along, but she yearned for direct confirmation from Juri herself so she resorted to hurting her instead since she's also kind of conversationally awkward. She wanted some kind of proof that Juri really was in love with her out of her heart and not pity. If Juri had told her that she loved her, then Shiori wouldn't feel useless. Second, When she and Ruka break up, she hesitates to say "you're the only one I love" in a clear manner. She kinda falters/stammers. Right afterwards she lets go of Ruka's arm. This means that she truly wasn't in love with him, but was all bent on getting JURI's attention. The reason for her crying publicaly was not because of the breakup itself, but the realization that she'd done something more pathetic. It's like she wants Juri to really say something, but since Juri refuses to, Shiori finds unwise ways to grab her attention or provoke Juri's hurt/jealousy/whatever, out of discomfort. She simply cannot confirm her own feelings since Juri doesn't provide her direct signs of affection.

Shiori is attached to Juri for sure. I mean that apology scene in Episode 17 was genuine, more than anything. She was real about her apology to Juri, and she was baffled as to why Juri wouldn't talk to her properly. It's clear that it was initially Juri who made Shiori feel neglected, proof being that Episode 7 showed that Juri used to get along with Shiori. In a flashback, after Shiori handed her the rose Juri realized her feelings for Shiori then refused to speak to her, due to possible awkwardness and the incapability to deal with feelings for a female friend. Shiori also points out that she and Juri had been close since they were children, that she never had many friends, and that she's always admired Juri for her strengths. Even Anthy notes that Shiori hadn't changed at all. Shiori dated the boy to hurt Juri because Juri's the one who hurt her first. She was so hurt and felt abandoned so much as to being hell bent on getting back at Juri for neglecting her. She wanted Juri's attention so bad that she attempted to try out things that she admitted to having felt pathetic about, all just to get Juri's attention. She even gave into Ruka bc he gave her all the attention and love that she wanted. By episode 29, only after Ruka does something heartwrenching to her that she realizes that Juri, although taciturn cared for her and treated her a lot better.