Maarika wrote:

Was it really Juri's sword? They never said anything about whose sword it was. :/

Beat me to it. I thought Ruka just said that it wasn't his....

To play the devil's advocate: while I am a fan of the Shiori/Juri relationship, I don't think romantic interest is necessarily a factor in being able to pull someone's sword. In the second run of student council duels, when the characters have 'rose brides' to pull the swords from them, we have Ruka and Juri paird together, and Touga and Nanami. Juri's feelings for Ruka may or may not be romantic, but she has a strong attachment to him as her old friend and mentor. Nanami's feelings for Touga were already shown not to be sexual, romantic love. Mamiya said in the Black Rose Arc that in order to pull a sword, the potential duelist would need 'a strong hold on the person's heart', which, to me, doesn't always include romantic feelings.

Hysterical Woman wrote:

At the end of the episode, Ruka tells her that was Juri's sword, and that she's a liar. It's interesting that it was actually Juri's sword there.

It was never said it was Juri's sword - it certainly didn't look like hers. Also, Shiori hadn't been polishing the sword, at all. She just claimed she had done so.

Ivy-chan wrote:

Mamiya said in the Black Rose Arc that in order to pull a sword, the potential duelist would need 'a strong hold on the person's heart', which, to me, doesn't always include romantic feelings.

Indeed, and more importantly, this doesn't neccecarily mean any strong emotions on the sword puller's part. It's the strong emotions of the Student Council member that matter. Having "a strong hold of the person's heart" means emotional power over the person in question, not neccecarily similar bond on the puller's side.

Yes, the water in the locket was what really clues me to her feelings. Obviously, it had not been opened prior to her entering the elevator. She went to the seminar before she even looked inside. At first, I thought it meant that she was upset because Juri still loved someone, and Shiori's harsh actions had done nothing to change that. I took this as her being petty, because she still had not stolen Juri's attention. But when she opens it, she laughs. She smiles to herself, and holds the locket close to her heart. This should prove she had some knowledge that she was the one Juri cared for. This made her happy, but I feel like she isn't only happy because she has gotten the upper hand. I think it's fairly safe to say there is something else behind it.

Last edited by dollface (03-04-2007 11:51:37 AM)

Razara wrote:

The sad thing is that their relationship probably could have worked out if Juri had told Shiori how she felt. Then Shiori would know that Juri wasn't only nice to her out of pity, and Shiori probably would have returned her feelings. But if that happened, we would be stuck with the nameless guy on the Student Council instead of Juri.

Even worse, we could have kept Ruka.

I think it's pretty clear Shiori does care about Juri quite a lot. If she didn't, they'd have a lot fewer problems in their relationship.

I think it's also pretty clear that doesn't include any romantic attraction whatsoever to Juri, nor any possibility of such in the future.

Anyone remember how Shiori freaks out during her elevator confession? First she's pleased as punch that 'poor little Juri' was secretly pining for her all this time, then her mood suddenly switches to naked panic. She sais something along the lines of 'what right does she have to look at me that way?'. That wasn't just an ordinary mood swing.
I gather that a lot of heterosexuals are uncomfortable around gay people because they're afraid they might be seen as 'bait' by someone of their own gender. That goes a long way to explain Shiori's sudden panic. At first, Shiori thought Juri's feelings for her gave her some kind of edge over Juri, which is what she always wanted. But it could easily go the other way. After all, this is Juri we're talking about. Shiori's always felt as if the incredibly talented Juri towered over her plain old self. Even looked down on her in pity. Juri must've always seemed vaguely threatening to her. And now she finds out that Juri wants her, and has no idea how to halt this 'threat'. Juri's feelings must've seemed like the ultimate insult to Shiori. Not content with condescending to her all these years, now Juri sees Shiori as the latest bit of 'bait' to have her way with. That's why she lashes out so violently in the elevator.
After that, I don't think anything resembling love between the two can still be possible. Knowing about Juri's feelings only makes thins worse for Shiori. From then on, she only seems to feel some twisted need to try and hurt Juri in whatever way she can, because only that allows her to feel good about herself. At best, Shiori loves to hate Juri.

Sexual orientation issues do not change things much. Shiori is panicked because she doesn't want Juri to gobble her up; whether she could or could not reciprocate Juri's desire is beside the point.

But many of Shiori's confessions confuse more than clarify and there are alternate interpretations for many of them. Assume for the sake of argument that Juri is lesbian and Shiori is a shocked hetero-sexual, even that could probably be hashed out, if both of them had self-repect, respect for each other, were able to communicate, and were less stubborn and obsessive. They probably became friends in the first place because they had much in common and probably they have similar flaws, but in different proportions.

Last edited by brian (03-06-2007 03:42:11 PM)

The concept of love, and how it turns into hate. I found a web page discussing about it. I don't know if it's credible discussion, but an idea is an idea, and I think the guy explains love pretty well.
If what the writer says is right, then Shiori's reactions in the confessional is her ego and pride doing the talk.

http://www.benbest.com/philo/philove.html

As for Nanami. I don't think she loves her brother in the romantic way. Her reaction when she saw Anthy screwing with Akio certainly was not a pleasant one. And during her final duel, she says she will surpass her brother. And when she loses, she breaks down, crying over her realization that she was only shining among the rest of the plain, normal girls because of her brother's presence, and now without him, she doesn't know how she can live on carrying the fact that she isn't someone special in this world anymore.
In a way, Nanami is just like Wakaba. They want to be special, or at least feel special, so they cling on to somebody who they KNOW is definitely special. It's like Utena said when she confessed to Anthy, "To be honest, my protecting you was just for my ego." Ultimately, everyone in Ohtori wants to become Dios. Very rarely do you see a character who loves someone because well, he/she loves that person.

Last edited by Hiraku (03-06-2007 08:38:47 PM)

alexielnet wrote:

How exactly do you define "in her right mind"?

I.E., not as a Black Rose Duellist.

I've thought about this a lot, and I don't think Shiori loves Juri, at least not in the same way Juri loves her. I don't think she even has the capacity for romantic love until the end of the series.

Think of it this way. Pretty much every person she makes any kind of meaningful contact with in the entire series and exposition benifit her in some way. Juri defended her during her childhood. Nameless Boy was something she could use to compete with Juri, and Ruka made her look shiny and clean and popular. When we're little gender roles are a lot more muddled so Juri had the ability to play her prince. When we start to get older, gender roles become more defined and as far as society and practicality goes there isn't much use in putting stock in another girl being your prince, so Shiori subconciously wrote it off as pity and started treating Juri like she probably would any other girl, competition. I don't think Shiori JUST stole Namless Boy from Juri to hurt her. Juri's seen as a symbol of refinement and good taste at Ohtori, and any guy she's interested in must be the best one there. Most likely Shiori pursued NB for the same reasons she went after Ruka on some level.

I'm also pretty sure that's why Shiori threw that fit when she realised Juri was in love with her. Shiori has absolutely nothing practical to offer Juri, just companionship. When I was 11 I gave my baby sister a mirror for the first time and I watched her laughter progress to panic and confusion and eventually a crying fit over the simple fact that her goddamn face was there. That's exactly how Shiori looked to me during the black rose arc. It wasn't so much homophobia as much as she'd just been confronted with a concept that was so foreign to her it mindfucked her right there in the elevator. That bit at the end of the series seemed like she was finally getting used to the idea that Juri genuinely enjoyed her companionship. It's possible that once she get used to the idea, Shiori could still fall for Juri. I'm not sure she had a sexual orientation before that anyway.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Part of what is tragic is that Shiori is already hurting Juri.  She hurts Juri every day through unrequited love and misunderstandings.  That's what makes her "cruelly innocent" when she 'steals' the boy from Juri and writes that letter.  She apologizes for hurting Juri and probably making Juri hate her...over the boy.  She doesn't realize how she actually hurting Juri, and that she was (presumably) hurting Juri before the boy 'came between them.'

I think Shiori *does* express a desire to hurt Juri.  She's not terribly creative about it, but she does have an urge to knock Juri off of her pedestal.  (The pedestal being in Shiori's head, of course.)

I don't think that Shiori's motives were based entirely around hurting Juri. Stealing the boy from Juri was an attempt to do whatever she could to put the two of them on the same level. "Even though I'm no match for you at anything, at least my feeling for him is..." She sounds really desperate as she says this, too. Yes, she realized that this was going to hurt Juri, but I doubt that she knew how much it was going to hurt Juri. What person in their right mind would continue to sulk over something that happened over three years ago? Juri's the one who has given up on ever being happy again, and Shiori is hardly at fault for this. Even so, she does take a sadistic pleasure in knowing that Juri has been suffering all these years at the thought of not being with her.

The term, "Cruelly Innocent," seems to imply that her innocence is cruel to Juri. She's unaware of Juri's feelings, and that innocence is cruel to her.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

I saw her approach of Ruka as being the same as her conquest of the Nameless Boy.  She sees Ruka with Juri, and then she goes into the locker room.  She appears to be looking for his locker, and presses herself against it.  Why? Was she instantly smitten with his forelock? Was his popularity immediately apparent to her?  No--because he was with Juri, fencing with Juri, speaking to Juri.  (And Shiori may have known that they were good friends prior to his illness.)  I love when she answers her door after the duel & car crash.  Her posture and her hostility -- this is Shiori expressing her innermost self.

I'm sorry, but I have a really hard time believing that Shiori looked Ruka and thought, "Hey, Juri's looking at him... They must be in love! Sure, she's glaring at him, but Juri glares at me a lot, and she's still in love with me, right? I had better steal that boy from her, even though I tried the same thing three years ago, and it left me feeling even more miserable than before. On top of that, I was wrong about her feelings for that boy, so I had better jump to the same conclusion again. The fact that I recently discovered that she's a lesbian only confirms my suspicion!"

I think that Shiori saw Ruka as a replacement for Juri. He's the captain of the fencing team, just as Juri is. We can assume that Shiori showed up at the locker room to polish Juri's sword, since Ruka said that it wasn't his, and Juri's sword was right next to Ruka's locker.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Episode 29 wrote:

Shiori:  Juri-san, so it's you.
Shiori:  What do you want?

Juri:  Shiori...
Shiori:  You came to laugh at me and feel all superior, didn't you?!

Juri:  Of course not--
Shiori:  You suck worse and worse every day! Did you expect me to cry for help on your shoulder?!
Shiori:  Too bad, but I'm not gonna do what you want me to.

I wouldn't say that this is Shiori expressing her innermost self-- quite the opposite, really. This is shortly after Shiori made a scene out of the entire school, causing everyone to look down on her and pity her. "You came to laugh at me and feel all superior, didn't you?!" Notice how it's Shiori's hand on the doorknob, and not Juri's. She's twisting it and pushing it forward, as though she's trying to reach Juri, but she can't. This isn't what she's assuming Juri will do, it's what she's afraid Juri will do. The chain on the door makes the same sound as her locket. In the end, they're both trapped by their feelings.

"You suck worse and worse every day! Did you expect me to cry for help on your shoulder?! Too bad, but I'm not gonna do what you want me to." This is what she's afraid of letting herself do. So, why does she lash out at Juri? It's because she can't stand the idea of letting Juri pity her. Rather than having Juri feel sorry for her, she lashes out, makes her hate her, and so that way she won't feel any need to pity her.