Nebula wrote:

The Gary Stu comment was based on my first impression of him.  Like I said earlier, he entered the show with surprising ease and very little buildup, which is something that a lot of Sues and Stus do.  Even though I know how his mini-arc turned out, the initial dislike still lingers on.  Still, I admit that calling him a Gary Stu is too harsh, and you raise a very good point about how self-contained his story was.  Despite his clumsy entrance, he didn't really have an impact on Ohtori beyond Juri and Shiori, while an actual Sue/Stu would have done a lot more during their stay.  As for the aforementioned fangirls ...now that I think about it, the fangirl masses have swooned over every major duelist except for Nanami.  Squee over Ruka isn't really out of place in retrospect.

Also, since you're a Ruka fan, I have a question: I haven't read Ruka's arc in the manga, but everything I've heard about it makes his appearance sound more natural than it was in the anime.  Do you know anything about the differences between the two?

Yes, and the "friend/love interest/relative who was important to this character/story all along, no, really!" is a trope that can be written well, but can also be written very badly, and is often used and abused by Sue/Stu writers in fandom.  However, I think that "Sue/Stu" is sometimes a label too quickly applied to canon characters (whether or not I'm personally fond of them, although I've been known to respond more strongly when it's a character I like).  And, yes, I am very fond of Ruka, but I recognize his flaws and respect that not all fans feel the same way about him.  I'm glad that we can talk about this intelligently.

As for the manga? It's been quite a long time since I've read it, but I do remember that Shiori was wholly absent from the story, and the romantic tension between Juri and Ruka was much more pronounced (and mutual).  Maybe somebody besides me can help with the details? (PM Nebula if you don't want to derail the thread.)

Eh. I'm on both sides of the fence. I don't really see the point of Ruka as an independent character, yet I can't deny what an integral part he plays to Juri's development. Now I am biased. I have nothing but endless critique for those who blast Shiori and yet forgive Ruka's every flaw. Similarly, I have little patience for those who criticize Ruka and see nothing wrong with his less well-intentioned female counterpart. But still, despite that, I think my deduction that he's a rather hastily injected character is a pretty fair one. There was no build-up specific to him, no real foreshadowing, and way too much glorification for a character with little to no development. I hate the fact that Juri and Shiori seem utterly re-written for the sheer sake of accommodating him. The latter in particular was denied a voice, complexity, or development. Shiori goes from a loathing and hate-able yet very aware and cunning character, to an utter and complete idiot. She is portrayed only through the eyes of the characters she impacts. Juri is a lot more IC, but her complicated feelings for Ruka seem too forced and sudden.

However, Ruka's brief character arch is unique. He's interesting and poses a very nice foil to the other male characters. More than any other, he embodies elements of both the player and the prince stereotypes that SKU men are unfortunately limited to. What he does is sincerely is out of a perhaps displaced sense of self-sacrificial devotion, but his methods of doing so are so ruthless that they inspire admiration in even Touga and Akio. He doesn't forgive Shiori for faults he blatantly displays, and thinks himself utterly justified harming what he cares for. I don't like him. But I can see the point of him. I just wish that point was more well-developed and less dependent on minimizing the other characters.

I do think he's a little bit of a Gary Stu in that it seems he was kind of awkwardly wedged in. Especially in terms of Juri. But at the same time, he's worth some brain-chewing. Not sure entirely what I was establishing there except that I agree a little bit with both sides of the debate on his character.

For the record, manga!Ruka is one of my least favorite characters in the SKU universe. He appears in one of the extra stories at the end of the last manga volume so he doesn't effect Juri's character development in any way and he's generally a flat character. But, then again, most of the manga cast pales in comparison to their anime counterparts.  (I mean, Utena's still a virgin at the end of the manga )

Neva Caruso wrote:

and the "friend/love interest/relative who was important to this character/story all along, no, really!" is a trope that can be written well, but can also be written very badly, and is often used and abused by Sue/Stu writers in fandom.

The same could be said of most Sue/Stu traits, come to think of it.  I think this goes to show what what really makes a Mary Sue aren't their actual traits so much as how these traits are presented to the audience.  Buuut that's a discussion for another time and another thread.

tl;dr: while Ruka's not a Stu, the presentation of his story makes otherwise acceptable traits seem jarring to some people.  I think that's something we can all agree on.

And I'm glad we can talk about it calmly, too.    It's much better than going "SO AND SO SUXXX"  "NO U SUCK WHOR"  "NUH-UH YOUR MOM SUCKS FIVE CENTS A POP OHHH ICE BURN"

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

So in weird way, I prefer his bastard-series self over his plot device princely movie self.

Same here.  On the one hand, I thought Movie!Touga was interesting on a meta-level, and I liked what he represented in both the narrative and in Utena's mind.  The woo-woo ghost thing and its symbolism is pretty neat, and becomes more interesting when compared to Ohtori's other "ghosts", like Mikage and Chigusa. 

But as a person?  Touga's no fun without any bite.  He doesn't have to be the jerk he was in the anime series to be interesting; manga Touga is a much nicer person, but he had some degree of moral ambiguity at the beginning, and the contrast makes his later change of heart more meaningful.  Movie!Touga didn't have that, though, so he bored me.  The only scene of his I actually liked was his farewell to Utena, but that was more because of its impact on her than anything about him.

Plus, the way his ~*~trauma~*~ was handled seemed shallow and completely pointless.  It's like, "How can we make this character seem like he has more depth than he actually does?"  "Ooh, ooh, how about some random childhood abuse?"  "BRILLIANT."  It came across as lazy writing to me.  While sexual abuse can make for powerful storytelling, all too often both amateur and professional writers use it as a shortcut to actual character depth, and it becomes nothing more than a thoughtless way to manipulate the audience's emotions.

Now, I'll admit this may not necessarily be the case.  Somebody in this thread argued that it fit, since all the duelists had a moment in their life where they were weak, vulnerable, and lacked control.  That does sound like an interesting theory, and I like the idea of the duelists fighting to gain control over their lives in response to past trauma.  That being said, though, the scene in the movie didn't carry the necessary depth for me to be moved by it.  Instead of genuine tragedy, all we get is an acid trip with nekkid moth Shiori.

(Though there is some interesting symbolism there with her as the moth in the cabbage patch, but that'd take things way off topic.  Again, another time and another thread).

Malacoda wrote:

For the record, manga!Ruka is one of my least favorite characters in the SKU universe. He appears in one of the extra stories at the end of the last manga volume so he doesn't effect Juri's character development in any way and he's generally a flat character. But, then again, most of the manga cast pales in comparison to their anime counterparts.

Ah, that's a shame.  :/  I can't really say I'm surprised, though.  While I feel that the manga characters have great potential, they suffer from a more compressed story than the anime.  The TV series was able to spread its character development over three seasons, while the manga finished its story in five short volumes.   In other words, it felt like the manga cast didn't get nearly as much screentime as their anime counterparts.

Nebula wrote:

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

So in weird way, I prefer his bastard-series self over his plot device princely movie self.

Same here.  On the one hand, I thought Movie!Touga was interesting on a meta-level, and I liked what he represented in both the narrative and in Utena's mind.  The woo-woo ghost thing and its symbolism is pretty neat, and becomes more interesting when compared to Ohtori's other "ghosts", like Mikage and Chigusa. 


Plus, the way his ~*~trauma~*~ was handled seemed shallow and completely pointless.  It's like, "How can we make this character seem like he has more depth than he actually does?"  "Ooh, ooh, how about some random childhood abuse?"  "BRILLIANT."  It came across as lazy writing to me.  While sexual abuse can make for powerful storytelling, all too often both amateur and professional writers use it as a shortcut to actual character depth, and it becomes nothing more than a thoughtless way to manipulate the audience's emotions.

Now, I'll admit this may not necessarily be the case.  Somebody in this thread argued that it fit, since all the duelists had a moment in their life where they were weak, vulnerable, and lacked control.  That does sound like an interesting theory, and I like the idea of the duelists fighting to gain control over their lives in response to past trauma.  That being said, though, the scene in the movie didn't carry the necessary depth for me to be moved by it.  Instead of genuine tragedy, all we get is an acid trip with nekkid moth Shiori.

(Though there is some interesting symbolism there with her as the moth in the cabbage patch, but that'd take things way off topic.  Again, another time and another thread).

I thought it fit in pretty well, to set up Touga as a parallel to Dios in the series, or at least Utena in the series (maintaining nobility despite the loss of innocence).  But, granted, that only really works concretely if you subscribe to the personal canon that Dios' transition into Akio was in part instigated by loss of sexual innocence via Anthy.  Like other elements of the movie, it was an idea or concept from the series taken to an extreme, like Anthy's role as the Rosebride explicitly involving sexual services to the one engaged in the movie, exploitation of Touga by an adoptive parent is expressed in a more literal sense for the sake of time in storytelling.

I also liked how it deviated to the Shioriflies, because I'm tired of rape or sexual abuse scenes in media being portrayed from the eyes of the aggressor, with the focus on the physical pain and nudity.  Aside from a shot or two, this scene felt like it was from Touga's point of view, and there is something heartbreakingly escapist about those moths, and yet they don't dampen the fear or the brutality of the situation.  The scene is visceral without being tacky, personal while devastatingly removed, dreamlike and nightmarish...

Plus, I like how, in a weird way, the sexual abuse acts as interesting personal canon for series!Touga's backstory as well, and rather syncs up a bit well with some of his behavior -he doesn't trust others, even the love of his own sister, manipulates others into loving him and not the other way around and views people and their affections as means to ends, love as a balance of power, and the Touga we saw in that church was pretty cynical for young boy.  Plus, there is more than one theory or instance of the movie and series canon's paralleling each other or mixing symbolism (a drowning child in a river and Juri). I'm not saying abuse is the only thing that could explain some of his character traits or that it is in this case, but I always kind of wondered if sexual abuse by a father figure was a plot idea BePapas originally toyed around with for Touga in the series but for some reason or another (probably because it simply wasn't necessary to create and develop Touga) put it aside, and then decided to add it to the movie, where there is less room to play out character development and motivation in present time.

My best example of this is how !Supahcat blends Movie!Touga's backstory with Series!Touga's development in The Prince and the Pauper.  Warning for that link, obviously contains allusions to abuse and mild, manipulative shota slash and EPIC SADNESS.

With Shiori, she's not shown ever doing anything but stalking Juri, polishing Juri's sword, lying to Ruka, being manipulated, tearing Juri down.  Nothing about her, to me, makes her likeable.  Yes, these characters all have serious problems and she's no exception.  But her problems are less sympathetic because it doesn't seem to me like she's anything beyond said problems.

Keep in mind, the big driving force of her problems is her abysmal self worth. She sees herself as never able to come close to the greatness of Juri/etc, and speaking from personal experience that mentality has a nasty way of turning into a self-fulfilling prophecy

That said, I might dislike Ruka, but I do like what was done with him. BePapas never made Juri do a 180 and come running into his arms like other series and more traditional fairy tales might have. She stays very uncomfortable (as she should!) with him to the end, and that alone subverts a mess of nasty tropes best that tend to put my screen at risk of impalement.

poetoffire wrote:

With Shiori, she's not shown ever doing anything but stalking Juri, polishing Juri's sword, lying to Ruka, being manipulated, tearing Juri down.  Nothing about her, to me, makes her likeable.  Yes, these characters all have serious problems and she's no exception.  But her problems are less sympathetic because it doesn't seem to me like she's anything beyond said problems.

She stalks Juri because she wants to regain the only friend she had left at Ohtori. And she was really only manipulative during that one flashback that gets repeated a million times (creating the illusion that she does it a lot), and the time she got manipulated into lying by Ruka, since his connections with God... I mean, the student council... Allowed him to know about her past with Juri.

Shiori's not that bad if you pay close attention. *Cues the theme to Monk*

Saio wrote:

Mine is Kozue.
Wanna have a "bride" like her during all my duels.

Are you sure that she isn't your MOST favourite character???

This thread is about which SKU character YOU DO NOT LIKE most of all, assuming you have one you particularly hate... that is.

Saio wrote:

Yea.

I was careless, thank You.

That's Nanami in a proper way of topic theme understanding....

It's alright.

(Off topic, I believe that English isnt your first language, am I correct in that assumption?)

Nanami pisses me the hell off.  She needs to get punched in the everything.

Akio would be the obvious choice, but the story would be a mere torso without him.

Kozue. She is unwilling to provide a meaningful evaluation of the situation around her and to see the big overall picture. She is unable to detect the subtle nuances of issues and to see when things are not what they seem. But her cluelessness or stupidity isn't passive, which makes it even worse. She's also disrespectful towards other people and thinks that human beings are wild animals. In Kozue you have the awful combination of stupidity and maliciousness.

I'd have to say that my least favorite is Shiori. I find her to be an evil little monster. Anthy's a close second.

I believe Nanami is 13.