In a twisted way I like Juri/Shiori, but mostly after they've settled their issues. I think its because I'd love to see Juri truly happy and I think after Shiori gets past her complete insecurity she might be able to love Juri...rather well.

Its actually really hard to like pairings in this series since everyone is kind of cheating on everyone else, but I think Frog/Chuchu is cute too.

I also think Touga and Saionji could make a cute couple once Touge gets over himself and stops being such a lying cheating bastard.

haelsyx wrote:

Its actually really hard to like pairings in this series since everyone is kind of cheating on everyone else, but I think Frog/Chuchu is cute too.

Hah, that's kind of how I feel.  Everyone's an asshole, to one degree or another, and/or pretty self-obsessed.  (I kinda like Touga/Saionji too, but it's sort of hard to ship Saionji with anyone when you know he's willing to smack around a girl that's half his size.)

Yeah thats true,very true I thought forever he was Yaoi,I have no problem with Yaoi since my half-bro is a Yaoi,hey you checked my RP? :3

Alexa wrote:

(I kinda like Touga/Saionji too, but it's sort of hard to ship Saionji with anyone when you know he's willing to smack around a girl that's half his size.)

I'm not as hardcore T/S as a used to be, mostly because there seems to be a trend in the pairing that basically assumes that making Saionji ghey and giving him the Touga-cock he has always craved turns him into a fluffy bunny of misunderstood romantic spharkly-poos.  Yeah, I do think think that Anthy intentionally and passively added fuel to the fire to get Saionji to slap her in front of Utena, but this doesn't mean she deserved to be hit, that hitting her was okay, or that if you remove Anthy from the equation you remove all of Saionji's problem behavior and psychology.  She added kindling to the flames, but she did not start them, and her desire to be hit was partially due to the necessity of it for her and Akio's schemes, and possibly due to some sort of masochism.  :<

I may kid around sometimes but I take that particular aspect of Saionji very srsly.  Saionji's circumstances are mitigating...not exonerating.

[Plus, where is the manipulative, soul-crushing bottom-Touga and in-denial, self-hating, animalistic Saionji top pr0nz?  Where, damnit?!]

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

Yeah, I do think think that Anthy intentionally and passively added fuel to the fire to get Saionji to slap her in front of Utena, but this doesn't mean she deserved to be hit, that hitting her was okay, or that if you remove Anthy from the equation you remove all of Saionji's problem behavior and psychology.  She added kindling to the flames, but she did not start them, and her desire to be hit was partially due to the necessity of it for her and Akio's schemes, and possibly due to some sort of masochism.  :<

I may kid around sometimes but I take that particular aspect of Saionji very srsly.  Saionji's circumstances are mitigating...not exonerating.

Yeah, Anthy probably even went out of her way to do/say stuff Saionji would be hurt by (even when Utena wasn't around to see)... just to fuck with him.  But nothing ever excuses violence in a relationship, especially when there's such a vast size differential.  (Of course, that has a lot to with the SKU art style's tendency to depict male characters as ridiculously, stupidly taller than females.  But the fact remains.)

I don't really think most of the characters are any more emotionally mature than Saionji, though.  He just expresses his angst in the most overtly icky way.

Alexa wrote:

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

Yeah, I do think think that Anthy intentionally and passively added fuel to the fire to get Saionji to slap her in front of Utena, but this doesn't mean she deserved to be hit, that hitting her was okay, or that if you remove Anthy from the equation you remove all of Saionji's problem behavior and psychology.  She added kindling to the flames, but she did not start them, and her desire to be hit was partially due to the necessity of it for her and Akio's schemes, and possibly due to some sort of masochism.  :<

I may kid around sometimes but I take that particular aspect of Saionji very srsly.  Saionji's circumstances are mitigating...not exonerating.

Yeah, Anthy probably even went out of her way to do/say stuff Saionji would be hurt by (even when Utena wasn't around to see)... just to fuck with him.  But nothing ever excuses violence in a relationship, especially when there's such a vast size differential.  (Of course, that has a lot to with the SKU art style's tendency to depict male characters as ridiculously, stupidly taller than females.  But the fact remains.)

I don't really think most of the characters are any more emotionally mature than Saionji, though.  He just expresses his angst in the most overtly icky way.

Exactly.  I've also always wondered just how much Saionji's violence hurts Anthy physically, considering the swords of human hatred (do they make her more or less sensitive to pain?) and her own capabilities ( not that this would excuse it either, because Saionji doesn't know that).  The reason I bring this up is because she acts just as physically hurt by Saionji's slaps as she does Juri's, Nanami's and Keiko's, falling to the ground and nursing a large, red mark on her cheek.  Maybe Saionji is restraining himself...which it certaintly does not look like... or he's not all that strong in the face-slapping department.

I also find it interesting how the girl's violence towards Anthy is ignored -there are plenty of Juri fans out there who hate Saionji because of his violence.  Juri has quite the muscle mass, height, and physical prowess over Anthy as well, so why is her and the other girl's violence somewhat more ignored (compared to Shiori's more emotionally manipulative harm which is BURNED AT TEH STAKE and even Touga's emotionally manipulative harm is relatively unbashed by the fandom?) 

This is prolly more for the Gender Swap thread, but I wonder if it's because we associate all these negative connotations with male on female violence concerning dominance and oppression, elements of which (control and misogyny) are certainly there in Saionji's case,  but no much Juri or the other girls.  Also, that type of violence hits closer to home to fans, because it is more common in real life.

But my point is, that these are the feelings and motivations and connotations behind the violent act, some coming from the character, and some coming from the viewer, but that doesn't change the fact that the harm done to Anthy is the same.  Do we overlook the violence in Juri and the other girls because it's not the kind of violence we expect from women, so we assume there must be some mitigating circumstances behind it, or that it simply does not hurt Anthy as much because women aren't as strong as men?  You can't tell me that a blow from Juri wouldn't bring tears to your eyes, and as I have said, the intent to harm is just as present in her case as it is all the others.  What Shiori does, however, is far more typical of what girls in the real world do to harm each other (at least in Western societies) so it hits too close to home on her account as well, so it's easier to bash her without forgiveness. 

It's so strange.   I don't exonerate any of them for hitting Anthy, but I do find it odd that some of the violence physical violence towards Anthy is ignored by the fandom or not taken as seriously simply because it's perpetrated by other women.

/threadjackomg

It also doesn't help that Saionji is the only character who is physically violent in every incarnation of SKU. Manga!Juri and manga!Kozue aren't nearly as physical as their anime counterparts. And don't get me started at how ridiculous the different versions of Touga and Akio are. (Makio's a wuss and manga!Akio isn't a bastard, what gives?)

But yeah, favorite pairings. I will actually read almost any pairing as long as it's well written but I always enjoy well written Shiori/Juri and Utena/Anthy. Though I wish more people would write pairings featuring the Shadow Play Girls. Because (damnit!) I want some awesome A-ko/B-ko/C-ko/Utena

satyreyes wrote:

Utena may be oblivious to the possible erotic undertones of a pair of uncloseted thespians running their hands over her face and hair, but we need not be!  More of this needs to exist. 

Quoted for truth.

I'd stop complaining and write some myself, but I'm busy writing my new favorite crack-pairing: Ruka/Juri's older sister.

I am in agreement with Alexa's and Katzenklavier's analyses.  Saionji's violence is much more vicious, to me, because of both the size differential and the frequency of it, and because it is a patterned violence that is basically the equivalent of domestic abuse: he sees her as his property in a romantic relationship, and anytime she irritates him he smacks her around.  I also find Akio's relationship with Anthy pretty disturbing, too, though it's more ambiguous and complex.

As for female violence in the series--I actually find Utena's smackdown of Mikage pretty reprehensible.  Granted he's done a lot to piss her off by that time, but it's interesting she never attempts to physically assault any of the larger males (the only female who does this is Juri against Ruka--and we see how that doesn't go so well).  It's possibly because none of the other guys did as much to provoke Utena as Mikage did.  But... I kind of suspect, in an unpleasant way, that it's also because she's physically capable of it.  Because he's her same height and size.  She's an athlete--whereas he's more of a geek/intellectual.  I think she punches him because, unlike with some of the other guys, she *can,* and she's not about to get her ass kicked for it.  In short, I think she beats him up because he's weaker and she's pissed.

Saionji also slaps Miki once, doesn't he?  It's been a while since I saw that ep.  It isn't noted as often as his slapping as Anthy (probably because it only occurs once), but it's more evidence of his pattern of smacking people obviously weaker than he is.

The one instance of female violence in the series I approve of?  When Nanami's three henchwomen try to take her down, issuing a threat and taunting her to stop them.  And in the next scene, the three have bruises and Nanami is leading them again.  IRL it'd be bullying--but it was a hilarious scene. 

Ico wrote:

Saionji's violence is much more vicious, to me, because of both the size differential and the frequency of it, and because it is a patterned violence that is basically the equivalent of domestic abuse: he sees her as his property in a romantic relationship, and anytime she irritates him he smacks her around.  I also find Akio's relationship with Anthy pretty disturbing, too, though it's more ambiguous and complex.

On the other hand, the series makes a big point about Anthy's agency; you could even say that the moral of her story is that sometimes you can choose to stop being victimized, and in the end you're the only one who can make that choice.  We shouldn't deny Anthy the responsibility for her own situation that the show works so hard to establish.  Saionji is an abusive asshole to Anthy, and Akio transcends "abusive asshole" to attain a whole new level of fail, but Anthy abuses them back just as hard or harder.  The fact that her violence is psychological rather than physical doesn't mitigate it.  As OITL said, this doesn't make Saionji a wide-eyed puppy, but it doesn't make Anthy one either; failing to appreciate this fact is exactly the central error of the Student Council with respect to Anthy.

As for female violence in the series--I actually find Utena's smackdown of Mikage pretty reprehensible.  Granted he's done a lot to piss her off by that time, but it's interesting she never attempts to physically assault any of the larger males (the only female who does this is Juri against Ruka--and we see how that doesn't go so well). . . . In short, I think she beats him up because he's weaker and she's pissed.

This is a really interesting point!  That might be right.  When Utena wants to flog broad-shouldered Saionji, she challenges him to a duel, where brawn takes a back seat to agility and discipline; when Utena wants to flog the underdeveloped Mikage, she just jumps him.  Even though I think of angry-Utena as a passionate type who would never back down from a fight, I have trouble imagining her trying to get Touga or Akio in a headlock.  Still, Utena retaliating violently to Mikage's mind games differs in one important way from Saionji retaliating violently to Anthy's.  Saionji slaps Anthy and that's the end of the discourse; he's ruled by his passions for a moment, establishes superiority, and then retreats into self-loathing.  Utena tackles Mikage and then challenges him to a fair fight; she's ruled by her passions for a moment, but regains enough of her senses to do the (comparatively) right thing rather than pressing her advantage.  Mikage even gets some leverage during the duel by theatrically nursing his wounded shoulder, which restores karma by problematizing Utena's sense of justice.  This is a nice piece of writing.

Saionji also slaps Miki once, doesn't he?

He does?    I don't remember that!  Do you remember which episode/arc?

As for Nanami's violence (or Tsuwabuki's, for that matter), I think slapstick violence has to be taken less seriously than dramatic and impactful violence like Saionji's and Utena's.

...Good Lord, I just looked at the title of this thread.  I have no idea how we got here from there.    To try to preserve some relevance, I think all the violent couples mentioned here -- Saionji and Anthy, Utena and Mikage, Nanami and her minions -- would have very interesting bedroom relationships.  All of them, even Nanami's, would be tainted (or at least tinted) by the violence that had passed between them.

Last edited by satyreyes (05-08-2010 11:20:16 PM)

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

I'm not as hardcore T/S as a used to be, mostly because there seems to be a trend in the pairing that basically assumes that making Saionji ghey and giving him the Touga-cock he has always craved turns him into a fluffy bunny of misunderstood romantic spharkly-poos.

I confess that I've fantasized about this on more than one occasion, and that's why I can't write in-character Tounji fics for beans. If I had it my way, Saionji would calm the hell down and Touga would be instantly loyal, but they're an interesting pair whether you look at them as friends who became more or deliciously dysfunctional and codependent. The healthiest relationship they'd ever have would be  an on again off again one because he would always have that insecure possesive streak.

Anyway, now I can't imagine them being all kissy and mushy since he would probably put a wall around his heart after pouring it out to Anthy.  I believe any of their romantic gestures would be private, subtle, and rare, but very meaningful. I guess they're my favorite couple because they know each other better than they know themselves.

Ico wrote:

As for female violence in the series--I actually find Utena's smackdown of Mikage pretty reprehensible.  Granted he's done a lot to piss her off by that time, but it's interesting she never attempts to physically assault any of the larger males (the only female who does this is Juri against Ruka--and we see how that doesn't go so well).  It's possibly because none of the other guys did as much to provoke Utena as Mikage did.  But... I kind of suspect, in an unpleasant way, that it's also because she's physically capable of it.  Because he's her same height and size.  She's an athlete--whereas he's more of a geek/intellectual.  I think she punches him because, unlike with some of the other guys, she *can,* and she's not about to get her ass kicked for it.  In short, I think she beats him up because he's weaker and she's pissed.

Eh...you might have a point on this one, but I think her delivering smackdown to Mikage has more to do with Wakaba than anything else. When Utena fights anyone else, it's always someone already involved in the dueling game. There are clear rules, boundaries, and goals. And even though Utena says that she just wants Anthy to be a normal girl and forget all of the Rose Bride business, it's pretty clear that Utena does enjoy the game on a certain level, and does think she deserves to 'own' Anthy. But when Mikage revealed himself as the mastermind behind Wakaba's duel, a little switch got flipped in Utena's head, a switch labelled 'not in MY backyard'. Wakaba is not involved in the duelling game and has never shown a darker side (to Utena anyway, I once read a fairly decent argument that Wakaba's relationship with Saiunji is based on a degree to her manipulation of him) and to Utena's way of thinking, Wakaba is not just a princess to be protected: she's a friend and someone with a pure soul. As an added bonus, the Black Rose duellers ALWAYS stated their aim to kill Anthy; so in one fell swoop Mikage managed to threaten not one, but TWO people Utena cares deeply about. All the duels are personal, of course, but Utena's duel with Mikage is PERSONAL. Personally, if I were in Utena's position I'd be delivering smackdown as well, and yes, I'd enjoy it very much. I might feel terrible afterwards, but I'd enjoy it while it lasted.

Back on topic:

Anthy's relationship with Miki. Aside from Utena and Akio, Miki seems to be the only person Anthy feels any emotion approaching genuine affection for and while she does manipulate him something fierce, there's a definite lack of malice to it. When his duel is over she's actually kind to him and starts a kind of friendship, instead of shredding and/or discarding him.

Anthy and Kozue; now there's something I'd have loved to see more of. Whoar.

Kozue and Shori; never saw it onscreen, but the collision of two manipulative, self-hating, incredibly needy individuals? Now there's something worth thinking about.

I would have liked to see more Juri/Utena. I'd always been intrigued by the nightgown scene, where Juri goes the grope on Utena and Utena seems to kinda like it.

Also, in my heart of hearts I love the three canon pairings: Anthy/Utena, Anthy/Akio, and Juri/Shori.

1 Guidance Counselor and the Vice Principal

2. Chigusa and D-ko

and then

3. The frog and chuchu