This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#26 | Back to Top05-07-2010 01:18:14 PM

haelsyx
Caretaker
From: sunlit state
Registered: 10-09-2009
Posts: 211
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Re: Favorite Pairings

In a twisted way I like Juri/Shiori, but mostly after they've settled their issues. I think its because I'd love to see Juri truly happy and I think after Shiori gets past her complete insecurity she might be able to love Juri...rather well.

Its actually really hard to like pairings in this series since everyone is kind of cheating on everyone else, but I think Frog/Chuchu is cute too.

I also think Touga and Saionji could make a cute couple once Touge gets over himself and stops being such a lying cheating bastard.


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Its an odd thing, but anyone who disappears is said to be in San Francisco-Oscar Wilde.
Anyone get the feeling finding Utena is going to be a lot like where in the world is Carmen San Diego?

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#27 | Back to Top05-07-2010 01:21:53 PM

Mithos of the wild rose
Miki Molester
From: Oregon coast
Registered: 05-06-2010
Posts: 30
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Re: Favorite Pairings

I suppose so after they stop with their squabble,oh and the Frog and Chuchu represented Saionji and Anthy,so Saionji is the Frog Prince,anyway nice to meet you. :3

(Mikage never cheated he was loyal to Tokiko the entire time seeing Utena as Tokiko.)


Five princes met within the garden they were the worlds light,two prince's died,one gave up,one was sealed,and the last just vanished,When six Princess's are gathered the path to the future will appear,the path leading to REVALUATION.

This is thee prophecy of Mithos,the one who bears the Wild-Rose. :3

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#28 | Back to Top05-07-2010 01:47:07 PM

Alexa
Anthy Assailer
Registered: 12-13-2006
Posts: 74

Re: Favorite Pairings

haelsyx wrote:

Its actually really hard to like pairings in this series since everyone is kind of cheating on everyone else, but I think Frog/Chuchu is cute too.

Hah, that's kind of how I feel.  Everyone's an asshole, to one degree or another, and/or pretty self-obsessed.  (I kinda like Touga/Saionji too, but it's sort of hard to ship Saionji with anyone when you know he's willing to smack around a girl that's half his size.)

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#29 | Back to Top05-07-2010 02:09:50 PM

haelsyx
Caretaker
From: sunlit state
Registered: 10-09-2009
Posts: 211
Website

Re: Favorite Pairings

Mithos of the wild rose wrote:

I suppose so after they stop with their squabble,oh and the Frog and Chuchu represented Saionji and Anthy,so Saionji is the Frog Prince,anyway nice to meet you. :3

(Mikage never cheated he was loyal to Tokiko the entire time seeing Utena as Tokiko.)

But you know at one point you shipped and/or thought Mikage/Mamya was cannon. poptart

Hi!

Alexa wrote:

(I kinda like Touga/Saionji too, but it's sort of hard to ship Saionji with anyone when you know he's willing to smack around a girl that's half his size.)

Also true, which is why all the romances I picture with Touga and Saionji take place in a kendo far away from any women. I in fact think it would do the female race good if they were to pair up with each other.

Last edited by haelsyx (05-07-2010 02:14:26 PM)


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Its an odd thing, but anyone who disappears is said to be in San Francisco-Oscar Wilde.
Anyone get the feeling finding Utena is going to be a lot like where in the world is Carmen San Diego?

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#30 | Back to Top05-07-2010 02:11:17 PM

Mithos of the wild rose
Miki Molester
From: Oregon coast
Registered: 05-06-2010
Posts: 30
Website

Re: Favorite Pairings

Yeah thats true,very true I thought forever he was Yaoi,I have no problem with Yaoi since my half-bro is a Yaoi,hey you checked my RP? :3


Five princes met within the garden they were the worlds light,two prince's died,one gave up,one was sealed,and the last just vanished,When six Princess's are gathered the path to the future will appear,the path leading to REVALUATION.

This is thee prophecy of Mithos,the one who bears the Wild-Rose. :3

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#31 | Back to Top05-07-2010 04:25:05 PM

Etrangere
Rose Smilee
From: Paris
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 134
Website

Re: Favorite Pairings

Being a yaoi? Wow, that's some funny new slang, there.

I also ship Saionji/Touga to keep them away from the ladies they abuse emot-biggrin


Yes. You shouldn't be suspicious of Anthy. Her big brother is your watching. There is no war in Ba Sing Se. ~ Dalbun

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#32 | Back to Top05-07-2010 04:55:31 PM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4412

Re: Favorite Pairings

Alexa wrote:

(I kinda like Touga/Saionji too, but it's sort of hard to ship Saionji with anyone when you know he's willing to smack around a girl that's half his size.)

I'm not as hardcore T/S as a used to be, mostly because there seems to be a trend in the pairing that basically assumes that making Saionji ghey and giving him the Touga-cock he has always craved turns him into a fluffy bunny of misunderstood romantic spharkly-poos.  Yeah, I do think think that Anthy intentionally and passively added fuel to the fire to get Saionji to slap her in front of Utena, but this doesn't mean she deserved to be hit, that hitting her was okay, or that if you remove Anthy from the equation you remove all of Saionji's problem behavior and psychology.  She added kindling to the flames, but she did not start them, and her desire to be hit was partially due to the necessity of it for her and Akio's schemes, and possibly due to some sort of masochism.  :<

I may kid around sometimes but I take that particular aspect of Saionji very srsly.  Saionji's circumstances are mitigating...not exonerating.

[Plus, where is the manipulative, soul-crushing bottom-Touga and in-denial, self-hating, animalistic Saionji top pr0nz?  Where, damnit?!]

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#33 | Back to Top05-07-2010 05:29:31 PM

haelsyx
Caretaker
From: sunlit state
Registered: 10-09-2009
Posts: 211
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Re: Favorite Pairings

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

[Plus, where is the manipulative, soul-crushing bottom-Touga and in-denial, self-hating, animalistic Saionji top pr0nz?  Where, damnit?!]

For a series so saturated with sexual innuendo, I'm seriously confused as to where all the pr0nz went. emot-gonk


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Its an odd thing, but anyone who disappears is said to be in San Francisco-Oscar Wilde.
Anyone get the feeling finding Utena is going to be a lot like where in the world is Carmen San Diego?

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#34 | Back to Top05-07-2010 07:09:32 PM

Alexa
Anthy Assailer
Registered: 12-13-2006
Posts: 74

Re: Favorite Pairings

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

Yeah, I do think think that Anthy intentionally and passively added fuel to the fire to get Saionji to slap her in front of Utena, but this doesn't mean she deserved to be hit, that hitting her was okay, or that if you remove Anthy from the equation you remove all of Saionji's problem behavior and psychology.  She added kindling to the flames, but she did not start them, and her desire to be hit was partially due to the necessity of it for her and Akio's schemes, and possibly due to some sort of masochism.  :<

I may kid around sometimes but I take that particular aspect of Saionji very srsly.  Saionji's circumstances are mitigating...not exonerating.

Yeah, Anthy probably even went out of her way to do/say stuff Saionji would be hurt by (even when Utena wasn't around to see)... just to fuck with him.  But nothing ever excuses violence in a relationship, especially when there's such a vast size differential.  (Of course, that has a lot to with the SKU art style's tendency to depict male characters as ridiculously, stupidly taller than females.  But the fact remains.)

I don't really think most of the characters are any more emotionally mature than Saionji, though.  He just expresses his angst in the most overtly icky way.

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#35 | Back to Top05-07-2010 07:31:18 PM

Melancholic_Soul
Dancer Romancer
From: VA
Registered: 04-28-2009
Posts: 1514

Re: Favorite Pairings

Etrangere wrote:

Being a yaoi? Wow, that's some funny new slang, there.

I also ship Saionji/Touga to keep them away from the ladies they abuse emot-biggrin

That reminded me of this anime called Maria holic. The protag asks this guy to call her a 'yuri' instead of a lesbian, because it sounded nicer. I have heard it used that way though, but usually in groups where the majority really shouldn't know what the random otaku/fanpeople are talking about.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v476/anthy_utena/rukasan.gif Believing in the power of Love and Justice since 1999
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#36 | Back to Top05-08-2010 04:26:05 PM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4412

Re: Favorite Pairings

Alexa wrote:

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

Yeah, I do think think that Anthy intentionally and passively added fuel to the fire to get Saionji to slap her in front of Utena, but this doesn't mean she deserved to be hit, that hitting her was okay, or that if you remove Anthy from the equation you remove all of Saionji's problem behavior and psychology.  She added kindling to the flames, but she did not start them, and her desire to be hit was partially due to the necessity of it for her and Akio's schemes, and possibly due to some sort of masochism.  :<

I may kid around sometimes but I take that particular aspect of Saionji very srsly.  Saionji's circumstances are mitigating...not exonerating.

Yeah, Anthy probably even went out of her way to do/say stuff Saionji would be hurt by (even when Utena wasn't around to see)... just to fuck with him.  But nothing ever excuses violence in a relationship, especially when there's such a vast size differential.  (Of course, that has a lot to with the SKU art style's tendency to depict male characters as ridiculously, stupidly taller than females.  But the fact remains.)

I don't really think most of the characters are any more emotionally mature than Saionji, though.  He just expresses his angst in the most overtly icky way.

Exactly.  I've also always wondered just how much Saionji's violence hurts Anthy physically, considering the swords of human hatred (do they make her more or less sensitive to pain?) and her own capabilities ( not that this would excuse it either, because Saionji doesn't know that).  The reason I bring this up is because she acts just as physically hurt by Saionji's slaps as she does Juri's, Nanami's and Keiko's, falling to the ground and nursing a large, red mark on her cheek.  Maybe Saionji is restraining himself...which it certaintly does not look like... or he's not all that strong in the face-slapping department.

I also find it interesting how the girl's violence towards Anthy is ignored -there are plenty of Juri fans out there who hate Saionji because of his violence.  Juri has quite the muscle mass, height, and physical prowess over Anthy as well, so why is her and the other girl's violence somewhat more ignored (compared to Shiori's more emotionally manipulative harm which is BURNED AT TEH STAKE and even Touga's emotionally manipulative harm is relatively unbashed by the fandom?) 

This is prolly more for the Gender Swap thread, but I wonder if it's because we associate all these negative connotations with male on female violence concerning dominance and oppression, elements of which (control and misogyny) are certainly there in Saionji's case,  but no much Juri or the other girls.  Also, that type of violence hits closer to home to fans, because it is more common in real life.

But my point is, that these are the feelings and motivations and connotations behind the violent act, some coming from the character, and some coming from the viewer, but that doesn't change the fact that the harm done to Anthy is the same.  Do we overlook the violence in Juri and the other girls because it's not the kind of violence we expect from women, so we assume there must be some mitigating circumstances behind it, or that it simply does not hurt Anthy as much because women aren't as strong as men?  You can't tell me that a blow from Juri wouldn't bring tears to your eyes, and as I have said, the intent to harm is just as present in her case as it is all the others.  What Shiori does, however, is far more typical of what girls in the real world do to harm each other (at least in Western societies) so it hits too close to home on her account as well, so it's easier to bash her without forgiveness. 

It's so strange.   I don't exonerate any of them for hitting Anthy, but I do find it odd that some of the violence physical violence towards Anthy is ignored by the fandom or not taken as seriously simply because it's perpetrated by other women.

/threadjackomg

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#37 | Back to Top05-08-2010 04:47:14 PM

Katzenklavier
Wondrous Sexual Eggplant.
From: Back of your thoughts.
Registered: 09-13-2008
Posts: 1120

Re: Favorite Pairings

OnlyInThisLight: It's so strange.   I don't exonerate any of them for hitting Anthy, but I do find it odd that some of the violence physical violence towards Anthy is ignored by the fandom or not taken as seriously simply because it's perpetrated by other women.

I don't entirely disagree that there might be some aspect of truth in what you're saying, but I don't think you can entirely attribute this interpretation to perceptual bias either. Juri is nowhere near as antagonistic towards Anthy as Saionji is. The former is uncalled for, but essentially an isolated event. Is it entirely forgivable? No, but Saionji's violence and cruelty is the type that insinuates systematic masculine ownership and control. It could be assumed that the many abusive acts witnessed in the series (him grabbing her, slapping her repeatedly, dragging her to the dueling arena) are only the tip of the iceberg. The underlying motive for these actions are even more twisted - twisted obsession, infatuation, and hopeless attempts at utter dominance. The actions of the Keiko & friends trio are so simplistic. They're wrong, but the fact that it's such commonplace bullying means it doesn't really stick out as much as Saionji's rage.

Conversely, I see people getting angrier at Saionji for his cruelty towards Anthy than they do Akio, who's far more responsible for her suffering. There are hints of physical violence, as glimpsed in the moment he grabs her when she refuses to answer him, shattering the teacup.  You get Touga taunting her about her powerlessness and being a neglectful bastard (and his almost killing Utena is almost NEVER mentioned). Yet Saionji sticks out more. I think it's because his brand of misogyny is blunter, plus it's the catalyst for much of the series. There's also the simple fact that for much of the beginning, he's just not an even remotely sympathetic character. Even Nanami has more appeal and depth than him during the first arch.

I guess what I would suggest is that the differentiation isn't quite so gendered, and you might be reading more into the potential biases of the fans than what exist. But then, you might have a very good point. I do that there's a sort of double standard in the media: physically violent female characters are forgiven and even glorified (Juri, Kozue, Utena at some points are SKU examples). Hm. Bah, either way, food for thought.


We must go forward, not backward. Upward, not forward. And always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

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#38 | Back to Top05-08-2010 06:45:17 PM

Malacoda
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
Registered: 07-26-2009
Posts: 180

Re: Favorite Pairings

It also doesn't help that Saionji is the only character who is physically violent in every incarnation of SKU. Manga!Juri and manga!Kozue aren't nearly as physical as their anime counterparts. And don't get me started at how ridiculous the different versions of Touga and Akio are. (Makio's a wuss and manga!Akio isn't a bastard, what gives?)

But yeah, favorite pairings. I will actually read almost any pairing as long as it's well written but I always enjoy well written Shiori/Juri and Utena/Anthy. Though I wish more people would write pairings featuring the Shadow Play Girls. Because (damnit!) I want some awesome A-ko/B-ko/C-ko/Utena emot-mad

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#39 | Back to Top05-08-2010 07:25:31 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Favorite Pairings

Malacoda wrote:

Because (damnit!) I want some awesome A-ko/B-ko/C-ko/Utena emot-mad

http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/14134-1/Series_ep34_033.jpg

Utena may be oblivious to the possible erotic undertones of a pair of uncloseted thespians running their hands over her face and hair, but we need not be!  More of this needs to exist.  etc-love

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#40 | Back to Top05-08-2010 07:41:06 PM

Malacoda
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
Registered: 07-26-2009
Posts: 180

Re: Favorite Pairings

satyreyes wrote:

Utena may be oblivious to the possible erotic undertones of a pair of uncloseted thespians running their hands over her face and hair, but we need not be!  More of this needs to exist.  etc-love

Quoted for truth.

I'd stop complaining and write some myself, but I'm busy writing my new favorite crack-pairing: Ruka/Juri's older sister.

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#41 | Back to Top05-08-2010 07:42:17 PM

Alexa
Anthy Assailer
Registered: 12-13-2006
Posts: 74

Re: Favorite Pairings

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

I've also always wondered just how much Saionji's violence hurts Anthy physically, considering the swords of human hatred (do they make her more or less sensitive to pain?) and her own capabilities ( not that this would excuse it either, because Saionji doesn't know that).  The reason I bring this up is because she acts just as physically hurt by Saionji's slaps as she does Juri's, Nanami's and Keiko's, falling to the ground and nursing a large, red mark on her cheek.  Maybe Saionji is restraining himself...which it certaintly does not look like... or he's not all that strong in the face-slapping department.

Well, it probably doesn't feel good, but after being pierced by a million swords Anthy may not be as phased by being slapped as she affects to be.  Anthy's reaction may just be what she's learned is the "correct" response.  Especially since, in the last episode as she takes the swords for Akio, she shows very little reaction.

But then, the swords are a lot more metaphorical than the slaps.  So.

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

This is prolly more for the Gender Swap thread, but I wonder if it's because we associate all these negative connotations with male on female violence concerning dominance and oppression, elements of which (control and misogyny) are certainly there in Saionji's case,  but no much Juri or the other girls.  Also, that type of violence hits closer to home to fans, because it is more common in real life.

There's probably an element of truth to this, but like Katzenklavier said, I think Saionji's violence towards Anthy seems much more characteristic of domestic abuse (which does happen in real life, so it provokes a very visceral reaction in some viewers--particularly females).  Juri slaps Anthy once, and was indeed an isolated incident.  Doesn't make it okay; Juri ought to use her words, etc.  But it's different from Saionji and Anthy's relationship for a few reasons:

- Height-wise, Juri has maybe five inches on Anthy, but Saionji is drawn as having at least a a foot.  He's also got a much larger frame and build, whereas Anthy and Juri are both drawn to be very slim.  So, visually, the incidents of violence between Saionji and Anthy come across as "harsher" than the ones between Anthy and female characters.  (As I said, this does have a lot to do with the SKU art's tendency to dramatically exaggerate secondary sex characteristics.)
- During the one incident where Juri hits Anthy, what Anthy does to instigate the attack is pretty obvious.  Slapping's not a regular thing, with Juri, and without the gentle needling that Anthy was giving her it probably could have been avoided.  On a number of occasions where Saionji hits Anthy, though, his reason isn't very clearly defined.  The first time we see him hit her, we have no idea why, and we can't even see her say anything to him.  He just looks pissed off.  So although many of the instances where Anthy gets hit seem to have been instigated for Utena's benefit (Utena needs to see Anthy get smacked around a little before she becomes dedicated to the dueling), I think it's clear that Saionji is, all on his own, a violent person.  Anthy may have used that to her "advantage" a few times, but it's also just a common way for him to express his feelings of anger and inferiority.  In episode 9, Saionji drags Anthy to the arena and smacks her when she objects.  Utena wasn't around to witness this, and Anthy didn't seem to have any vicious ulterior motive for what she was saying.  Basically, I think it's safe to say that Anthy was getting hit pretty frequently, even at times when she hadn't lashed out at Saionji.  And so...
- ...Saionji's actions indicate a pattern of violence that is common among men who abuse their partners.  And although violence can be perpetrated by people of any sex or gender, violence by men against women is vastly more common.
- Finally, Anthy is set up to be in a "relationship" with Saionji at the beginning of the series.  It's not a normal relationship, but it's a relationship all the same... especially to Saionji, who seems to regard it all as some grand romance.  It's not a relationship that Anthy chose, and as the Rose Bride, she cannot opt out of it.  It could be said that Anthy chooses to stay at Ohtori as the Rose Bride, but at this point in the series, she really doesn't see herself as having any other options.  Which is true of many women in abusive relationships.

I think the above also sets Saionji and Anthy apart from her relationships with Touga and Akio.  Neither of them can be praised for their behavior towards her, but they don't show the same pattern of violence that Saionji does.  And even though there are a couple questionable moments between Anthy and Akio, I think those moments were the first of their kind: only after Utena came along did Anthy, for the first time, begin to question her situation and relationship with Akio.


ERRRRR maybe we should start a different thread for this or something.  Not trying to derail the pairings talk.

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#42 | Back to Top05-08-2010 10:48:43 PM

Ico
Juri Jeerer
From: Over the moon
Registered: 03-30-2010
Posts: 48
Website

Re: Favorite Pairings

I am in agreement with Alexa's and Katzenklavier's analyses.  Saionji's violence is much more vicious, to me, because of both the size differential and the frequency of it, and because it is a patterned violence that is basically the equivalent of domestic abuse: he sees her as his property in a romantic relationship, and anytime she irritates him he smacks her around.  I also find Akio's relationship with Anthy pretty disturbing, too, though it's more ambiguous and complex.

As for female violence in the series--I actually find Utena's smackdown of Mikage pretty reprehensible.  Granted he's done a lot to piss her off by that time, but it's interesting she never attempts to physically assault any of the larger males (the only female who does this is Juri against Ruka--and we see how that doesn't go so well).  It's possibly because none of the other guys did as much to provoke Utena as Mikage did.  But... I kind of suspect, in an unpleasant way, that it's also because she's physically capable of it.  Because he's her same height and size.  She's an athlete--whereas he's more of a geek/intellectual.  I think she punches him because, unlike with some of the other guys, she *can,* and she's not about to get her ass kicked for it.  In short, I think she beats him up because he's weaker and she's pissed.

Saionji also slaps Miki once, doesn't he?  It's been a while since I saw that ep.  It isn't noted as often as his slapping as Anthy (probably because it only occurs once), but it's more evidence of his pattern of smacking people obviously weaker than he is.

The one instance of female violence in the series I approve of?  When Nanami's three henchwomen try to take her down, issuing a threat and taunting her to stop them.  And in the next scene, the three have bruises and Nanami is leading them again.  IRL it'd be bullying--but it was a hilarious scene.  emot-rofl

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#43 | Back to Top05-08-2010 10:59:39 PM

HonorableShadow
Thorn of Death
From: Ohio
Registered: 11-03-2006
Posts: 482

Re: Favorite Pairings

Utena/Anthy - I really didn't expect I'd like them so much!  I have nothing against yuri, but generally, it's not my cup of tea.  But by the end of the series I had fallen in love with them.  Especially the idea that it was a one sided longing love on Anthy's part in the beginning that grew slowly over time, with Utena having more dormant feelings that she was unaware of.

Mikage/Mamiya - The first pairing on the show that I got into. emot-biggrin I really loved them together.  The fact that Anthy turned out to be Mamiya nearly sank my ship, but I bounced back. 

Nanami/Tsuwabuki - They're cute together.  I think that Nanami does like Tsuwabkuki, though at the moment like a little brother.  I feel that Tsuwabuki will be handsome and charming when he grows up and they'll make a nice couple. They get along well.


I'll show you a sight you've never seen before.

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#44 | Back to Top05-08-2010 11:17:29 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Favorite Pairings

Ico wrote:

Saionji's violence is much more vicious, to me, because of both the size differential and the frequency of it, and because it is a patterned violence that is basically the equivalent of domestic abuse: he sees her as his property in a romantic relationship, and anytime she irritates him he smacks her around.  I also find Akio's relationship with Anthy pretty disturbing, too, though it's more ambiguous and complex.

On the other hand, the series makes a big point about Anthy's agency; you could even say that the moral of her story is that sometimes you can choose to stop being victimized, and in the end you're the only one who can make that choice.  We shouldn't deny Anthy the responsibility for her own situation that the show works so hard to establish.  Saionji is an abusive asshole to Anthy, and Akio transcends "abusive asshole" to attain a whole new level of fail, but Anthy abuses them back just as hard or harder.  The fact that her violence is psychological rather than physical doesn't mitigate it.  As OITL said, this doesn't make Saionji a wide-eyed puppy, but it doesn't make Anthy one either; failing to appreciate this fact is exactly the central error of the Student Council with respect to Anthy.

As for female violence in the series--I actually find Utena's smackdown of Mikage pretty reprehensible.  Granted he's done a lot to piss her off by that time, but it's interesting she never attempts to physically assault any of the larger males (the only female who does this is Juri against Ruka--and we see how that doesn't go so well). . . . In short, I think she beats him up because he's weaker and she's pissed.

This is a really interesting point!  That might be right.  When Utena wants to flog broad-shouldered Saionji, she challenges him to a duel, where brawn takes a back seat to agility and discipline; when Utena wants to flog the underdeveloped Mikage, she just jumps him.  Even though I think of angry-Utena as a passionate type who would never back down from a fight, I have trouble imagining her trying to get Touga or Akio in a headlock.  Still, Utena retaliating violently to Mikage's mind games differs in one important way from Saionji retaliating violently to Anthy's.  Saionji slaps Anthy and that's the end of the discourse; he's ruled by his passions for a moment, establishes superiority, and then retreats into self-loathing.  Utena tackles Mikage and then challenges him to a fair fight; she's ruled by her passions for a moment, but regains enough of her senses to do the (comparatively) right thing rather than pressing her advantage.  Mikage even gets some leverage during the duel by theatrically nursing his wounded shoulder, which restores karma by problematizing Utena's sense of justice.  This is a nice piece of writing.

Saionji also slaps Miki once, doesn't he?

He does?  emot-aaa  I don't remember that!  Do you remember which episode/arc?

As for Nanami's violence (or Tsuwabuki's, for that matter), I think slapstick violence has to be taken less seriously than dramatic and impactful violence like Saionji's and Utena's.

...Good Lord, I just looked at the title of this thread.  I have no idea how we got here from there.  emot-redface  To try to preserve some relevance, I think all the violent couples mentioned here -- Saionji and Anthy, Utena and Mikage, Nanami and her minions -- would have very interesting bedroom relationships.  All of them, even Nanami's, would be tainted (or at least tinted) by the violence that had passed between them.

Last edited by satyreyes (05-08-2010 11:20:16 PM)

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#45 | Back to Top05-10-2010 10:16:08 PM

Duelist Megu
Ruthless Deflorist
From: Calgary, AB
Registered: 12-07-2007
Posts: 303
Website

Re: Favorite Pairings

Ico wrote:

The one instance of female violence in the series I approve of?  When Nanami's three henchwomen try to take her down, issuing a threat and taunting her to stop them.  And in the next scene, the three have bruises and Nanami is leading them again.  IRL it'd be bullying--but it was a hilarious scene.  emot-rofl

That was totally her crowning moment.  For her to get her girls back in line using brute force... I think it shows her awareness of the pettiness of how she uses them, and I'm not sure how self-aware she was about that before, you know?  And at the same time, it took a lot of balls.  Not many characters went out of this series distinctly stronger than they went in, but she's definitely one of them.

haelsyx wrote:

In a twisted way I like Juri/Shiori, but mostly after they've settled their issues. I think its because I'd love to see Juri truly happy and I think after Shiori gets past her complete insecurity she might be able to love Juri...rather well.

Ay, haelsyx.  Don't want to get too offtopic here, but you'll probably like this fic.  Post-revolution, Shiori tries to get over her issues, and a bit of a two steps forward, one step back courtship ensues.  Short, but exactly what you're describing.  My favorite J/S fic.

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#46 | Back to Top05-19-2010 09:41:20 PM

Riri-kins
World's End
From: Cloud Nine
Registered: 09-22-2008
Posts: 2354

Re: Favorite Pairings

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

I'm not as hardcore T/S as a used to be, mostly because there seems to be a trend in the pairing that basically assumes that making Saionji ghey and giving him the Touga-cock he has always craved turns him into a fluffy bunny of misunderstood romantic spharkly-poos.

I confess that I've fantasized about this on more than one occasion, and that's why I can't write in-character Tounji fics for beans. emot-redface If I had it my way, Saionji would calm the hell down and Touga would be instantly loyal, but they're an interesting pair whether you look at them as friends who became more or deliciously dysfunctional and codependent. The healthiest relationship they'd ever have would be  an on again off again one because he would always have that insecure possesive streak.

Anyway, now I can't imagine them being all kissy and mushy since he would probably put a wall around his heart after pouring it out to Anthy.  I believe any of their romantic gestures would be private, subtle, and rare, but very meaningful. I guess they're my favorite couple because they know each other better than they know themselves.


Proud Saionji and Mikage fangirl
My Utena fanfiction: http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2000115/Riri-kins

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#47 | Back to Top05-27-2010 10:29:08 PM

YostinAust
Pathtracer
From: Tallahassee, Florida
Registered: 04-02-2009
Posts: 352

Re: Favorite Pairings

Juri and miki, because the reverse gender roles and look good while doing it.

Misuru and nanami, because they were two of the show's most awesome and underappreciated characters.


"In this age, the mere example of non-conformity, the mere refusal to bend the knee to custom, is itself a service"
     - John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

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#48 | Back to Top05-28-2010 04:01:15 AM

crystalwren
Dark Whisperer
From: Brisbane
Registered: 04-21-2009
Posts: 1172
Website

Re: Favorite Pairings

Ico wrote:

As for female violence in the series--I actually find Utena's smackdown of Mikage pretty reprehensible.  Granted he's done a lot to piss her off by that time, but it's interesting she never attempts to physically assault any of the larger males (the only female who does this is Juri against Ruka--and we see how that doesn't go so well).  It's possibly because none of the other guys did as much to provoke Utena as Mikage did.  But... I kind of suspect, in an unpleasant way, that it's also because she's physically capable of it.  Because he's her same height and size.  She's an athlete--whereas he's more of a geek/intellectual.  I think she punches him because, unlike with some of the other guys, she *can,* and she's not about to get her ass kicked for it.  In short, I think she beats him up because he's weaker and she's pissed.

Eh...you might have a point on this one, but I think her delivering smackdown to Mikage has more to do with Wakaba than anything else. When Utena fights anyone else, it's always someone already involved in the dueling game. There are clear rules, boundaries, and goals. And even though Utena says that she just wants Anthy to be a normal girl and forget all of the Rose Bride business, it's pretty clear that Utena does enjoy the game on a certain level, and does think she deserves to 'own' Anthy. But when Mikage revealed himself as the mastermind behind Wakaba's duel, a little switch got flipped in Utena's head, a switch labelled 'not in MY backyard'. Wakaba is not involved in the duelling game and has never shown a darker side (to Utena anyway, I once read a fairly decent argument that Wakaba's relationship with Saiunji is based on a degree to her manipulation of him) and to Utena's way of thinking, Wakaba is not just a princess to be protected: she's a friend and someone with a pure soul. As an added bonus, the Black Rose duellers ALWAYS stated their aim to kill Anthy; so in one fell swoop Mikage managed to threaten not one, but TWO people Utena cares deeply about. All the duels are personal, of course, but Utena's duel with Mikage is PERSONAL. Personally, if I were in Utena's position I'd be delivering smackdown as well, and yes, I'd enjoy it very much. I might feel terrible afterwards, but I'd enjoy it while it lasted.

Back on topic:

Anthy's relationship with Miki. Aside from Utena and Akio, Miki seems to be the only person Anthy feels any emotion approaching genuine affection for and while she does manipulate him something fierce, there's a definite lack of malice to it. When his duel is over she's actually kind to him and starts a kind of friendship, instead of shredding and/or discarding him.

Anthy and Kozue; now there's something I'd have loved to see more of. Whoar. emot-redface

Kozue and Shori; never saw it onscreen, but the collision of two manipulative, self-hating, incredibly needy individuals? Now there's something worth thinking about.

I would have liked to see more Juri/Utena. I'd always been intrigued by the nightgown scene, where Juri goes the grope on Utena and Utena seems to kinda like it. etc-wankgirl

Also, in my heart of hearts I love the three canon pairings: Anthy/Utena, Anthy/Akio, and Juri/Shori. school-devil

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#49 | Back to Top05-28-2010 03:05:06 PM

Katzenklavier
Wondrous Sexual Eggplant.
From: Back of your thoughts.
Registered: 09-13-2008
Posts: 1120

Re: Favorite Pairings

crystalwren: Eh...you might have a point on this one, but I think her delivering smackdown to Mikage has more to do with Wakaba than anything else.

I agree. I think the idea of Utena beating the shit out of someone because he's weaker is against the grain of her character. While it's true she's no angel, the meaning of her jarring assault indicates a much deeper significance than her merely being a bully. Like you said, Wakaba plays a huge role. There's also the fact that Mikage directly compares himself and his goals to Utena's. In this way, he sullies her ideal even more than Touga did. We see her innocence gradually breaking piece by piece throughout the arc, the last duel of the first season serving as a major catalyst. But in the Black Rose saga she begins to realize that there really is no one she can trust. After the fight with Keiko, she talks about frightening it is to see how hatred can take root beneath the surface with these wide hurt eyes. An oddly wise thing for the notoriously naive girl to say. These realizations eventually serve to prepare her for the final destruction of her ideology.

I think her encounter with Mikage was, as you said, a reaction of being pushed too far. Mikage didn't engage with the rules, nor did he show any sort of honor. Touga, at least, gave Utena the occasional impression of being chivalrous. His ultimate attack was on the battle field. That's where she challenged him and used her temper to claim her revenge and former identity. The final confrontation with Akio was also in the arena, and here Utena was trying to reclaim some shred of her princeliness for the sake of Anthy. It makes sense she would use a sword. Mikage came off as especially cowardly, approached her when she couldn't draw upon Dios to vent her anger, she had no real previous connection to give that might have given her pause, and then (worst of all) compared his ideas to hers. Perfect mix for a cocktail of Utena wrath.

I just can't see her as being a predator who deliberately picked on a physically weaker opponent.

So. Favorite pairings. Believe it or not, I'm pretty into the new revelations about Chigusa. She might just be skyrocketing up there as one of my favs. I do think she's ridiculously appealing. While her scenes with Kozue are cute, I just adore the hate/love drama between her and our hapless Mary Sue/anti-Sue D-ko. So much tension.


We must go forward, not backward. Upward, not forward. And always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

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#50 | Back to Top05-28-2010 03:39:18 PM

Zabel Z
Ohtori Paramouri
From: Brazil
Registered: 05-18-2010
Posts: 91

Re: Favorite Pairings

1 Guidance Counselor and the Vice Principal

2. Chigusa and D-ko

and then

3. The frog and chuchu






emot-biggrin


Damm kids, get out of my lawn!!!

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